Biggest bungle of the Obama admin? Operation Fast & Furious?

kochman

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http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-atf-director-resign-20110830,0,2535299.story

Spoiler :
Kenneth E. Melson, who has faced heavy criticism in connection with the controversial Fast and Furious gun-trafficking investigation, announced Tuesday that he is stepping down as acting director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

Also resigning is Dennis Burke, the U.S. attorney in Phoenix whose office oversaw the Fast and Furious program, in which ATF agents purposely allowed weapons to be illegally purchased in the hope of catching Mexican drug cartel leaders.

Melson shared the news in a conference call at 11:30 a.m. EDT with supervisors at the bureau's field offices, telling them that he will be moving back to the Department of Justice to serve as a senior advisor with the Office of Legal Programs. His resignation will take effect at 5 p.m. EDT.

Attorney Gen. Eric H. Holder Jr. announced that B. Todd Jones, the U.S. attorney in Minneapolis, will replace Melson as acting director, effective Wednesday.

Despite the problems with Fast and Furious under Melson's tenure, Holder praised the outgoing acting director and his new responsibilities.

"Ken brings decades of experience at the department and extensive knowledge in forensic science to his new role and I know he will be a valuable contributor on these issues," Holder said. "As he moves into this new role, I want to thank Ken for his dedication to the department over the last three decades."

But simply transferring Melson within the Justice Department did not immediately sit well with some critics, including Sen. John Cornyn (R-Texas), who has asked Justice officials for an accounting of all Fast and Furious cases in Texas.

"Instead of reassigning those responsible for Fast and Furious within the Department of Justice," Cornyn said, "Atty. Gen. Holder should ask for their resignations and come clean on all alleged gun-walking operations, including a detailed response to allegations of a Texas-based scheme."

Under Melson's leadership, ATF launched Operation Fast and Furious, through which agents were to watch -- and in some cases record on video -- illegal gun sales and then use surveillance teams and electronic eavesdropping to follow the guns and learn how the weapons were moved. The goal was to arrest cartel leaders overseeing gun smuggling on the U.S. side of the border with Mexico.

But the chase for guns and cartel leaders soon hit a dead end. The ATF was attempting to follow each of the weapons as they were moved from the straw men who bought them illegally at gun shops to what officials expected would be cartel higher-ups in the U.S., who would move them to Mexico.

The agency, which didn't have the resources to follow so many weapons, soon lost track of many of them. When officials did follow them to the next level, the buyers of the guns often turned out to be Mexicans living legally in the U.S. and not cartel honchos.

An investigation by the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, chaired by Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.), uncovered emails that showed Melson was regularly briefed on the botched operation.

richard.serrano@latimes.com


Whose hairbrained scheme was this? Seriously?
With all the talk about how our guns are getting sent into Mexico and used in their drug wars, we are now officially sending them over?

To me this seems unfathomable... a total abuse.

Let's just start officially shipping heroin in to catch the dealers... oops...
 
Their plan was not to be "caught" shipping the guns, so that the could claim we need to clamp down on ALL gun sales.

Or a least that what some people are speculating.
 
Are ATF operations normally named after crappy Vin Diesel movies? Should I expect to read about "Operation Chronicles of Riddick" in the near future?
 
Sounds like Iran-Contra; but those who would attack the aforementioned affair will most probably defend this one, because "the situation is different".
 
How can it sound like Iran-Contra? We aren't selling weapons to a country were are hostile with in exchange for POWs while directing the funds to Nicaraguan rebels.
 
How can it sound like Iran-Contra? We aren't selling weapons to a country were are hostile with in exchange for POWs while directing the funds to Nicaraguan rebels.

I'm going to venture a guess and say that his answer will come out like this:

"We were selling weapons to drug dealers in exchange for money, while directing the funds to foreign terrorists by giving aid to Afghanistan/Pakistan"
 
1.) this is far from Obama's biggest failure.

2.) This isn't Obama's failure, it was conceived and executed far below his level. This my surprise people who view governance from amtop down civ perspective, but thousands of functionaries operate with certain levels and types of autonomy.

3.) The basic theory of the operation was sound, the execution was shoddy.
 
Naw, the theory of the operation was shoddy as well.

The idea that a cartel leader or a high ranking member would set foot on US soil to buy a few semi auto AKs is laughable.
 
Naw, the theory of the operation was shoddy as well.

The idea that a cartel leader or a high ranking member would set foot on US soil to buy a few semi auto AKs is laughable.

Uh, I think the point of the operation was to trace the weapons to their ultimate buyer (cartels) to build evidence against them. I don't think anyone was expecting the cartels to come directly into the U.S.
 
Uh, I think the point of the operation was to trace the weapons to their ultimate buyer (cartels) to build evidence against them. I don't think anyone was expecting the cartels to come directly into the U.S.

No the plan was to arrest people in the US.

Extending the operation into Mexican jurisdiction would have required, uh, you know Mexican, knowledge, permission and cooperation...
 
How can it sound like Iran-Contra? We aren't selling weapons to a country were are hostile with in exchange for POWs while directing the funds to Nicaraguan rebels.
Agreed, the IC affair at least had a mission to free hostages, while promoting a non-commie government (while uplifting a shitbag despot government, unfortunately).

1.) this is far from Obama's biggest failure.

2.) This isn't Obama's failure, it was conceived and executed far below his level. This my surprise people who view governance from amtop down civ perspective, but thousands of functionaries operate with certain levels and types of autonomy.

3.) The basic theory of the operation was sound, the execution was shoddy.
2) BS, the buck stops at the top. I really don't believe this was planned and never approved by upper levels... and if it was, that is a sign of incompetence too...
3) The basic theory IS TERRIBLE, as a big supporter of gun rights in America, this is a slap in the face. The theory is basically, to quote the Godfather, "They're animals anyway, so let them lose their souls". It's absolutely awful, and should have been passed up the chain for outright rejection (which I believe it would have been had it hit Obama's ears... He is pretty smart, failures aside... but his administration has to take some credit for something like this, part of the job... bosses get axed all the time for things they didn't know from lack of oversight).
 
... (which I believe it would have been had it hit Obama's ears... He is pretty smart, failures aside... but his administration has to take some credit for something like this, part of the job... bosses get axed all the time for things they didn't know from lack of oversight).
I disagree, I think Obama would have signed off on something like this because he's been as committed to fighting the drug war as past presidents.
 
2) BS, the buck stops at the top. I really don't believe this was planned and never approved by upper levels... and if it was, that is a sign of incompetence too...

My tax return was delayed last year, obviously the buck stops at Obama and he should resign.

How many Federal agenst were involved in wrongful deaths this year? Is Obama responsible for all those too?

Obama is not responsible in any meaningful way for every single thing that happens in a government of over a million people. In theory this "all the way to the top" sounds good and yes in a purely philisophical sense he is the boss of every executive employee. Practically, however, there are dozens of competent, specifically delegated levels of administration between him and most functionaries and each had their own degree of autonomy. The "buck stops here" is not supposed to be practices just by the President, it can stop anywhere someone takes responsibility for what happened.

Obama is no more responsible for this than Bush was responsible for what some random prison guard decided to do randomly in Iraq.

3) The basic theory IS TERRIBLE, as a big supporter of gun rights in America, this is a slap in the face. The theory is basically, to quote the Godfather, "They're animals anyway, so let them lose their souls". It's absolutely awful, and should have been passed up the chain for outright rejection (which I believe it would have been had it hit Obama's ears... He is pretty smart, failures aside... but his administration has to take some credit for something like this, part of the job... bosses get axed all the time for things they didn't know from lack of oversight).

Your characterization of what this operation was has no resemblance to reality, it your use of the movie quote makes no sense. Law enforcement use marked contraband to trace illegal markets all the time, specifically to link kingpins to those markets. Its done with drugs, money, and guns on a regular basis.

And no, Obama was not and should not have been read into this. The FBI/CIA/ATF/ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ have literally thousands of investigations and operations of this sort going on all the time. Do you think presidents were read into all the FBI mob cases (which coincidentally involved using marked drugs/money/drugs)? Of course not, and each one was on the level of this particular operation.

If this had been run correctly quite a few cartel leaders would be in prison with actual cases that could be used against them. It was not run correctly, thus there is not any of that happening. THAT is what you should be pissed about.
 
I suspect that the governments like the bloody drug wars in Mexico for several reasons.

1) It gets rid of a lot of drug dealers, thousands are shot, many quit because of risk and many don't get involved because of the risk.

2) It gives the government more reasons to clamp down on gangs and use tactics that otherwise could't be used.

3) It costs the gangs insane amounts of money/resources to fight these huge wars.
 
I suspect that the governments like the bloody drug wars in Mexico for several reasons.

1) It gets rid of a lot of drug dealers, thousands are shot, many quit because of risk and many don't get involved because of the risk.

2) It gives the government more reasons to clamp down on gangs and use tactics that otherwise could't be used.

3) It costs the gangs insane amounts of money/resources to fight these huge wars.

Nah... none of that makes any sense at all.
 
Yeah, I'm with Pat. This doesn't appear to be THAT different from a lot of reputable organized crime stings. It is unfortunate that this was planned and executed poorly, and certainly some people should be losing their jobs, but it is pretty ridiculous to insinuate that Obama had anything to do with it. Sounds like if they had prepared themselves to monitor that amount of moving firearms, they would have been led to some higher ups.
 
My tax return was delayed last year, obviously the buck stops at Obama and he should resign.

Lots of post after...
You're comparing tax returns to this? Apples and oranges.
Do you blame Reagan for the Iran-Contra Affair?

Every single mistake in the government doesn't go up to the President, obviously. This is a pretty big enchilada though, and I really don't believe it was not known to at least AG Holder.

3) It costs the gangs insane amounts of money/resources to fight these huge wars.
3) Their profit margins can afford it. Remember Escobar? He was de facto president in Colombia, with a greater personal GDP.
 
Yeah, I'm with Pat. This doesn't appear to be THAT different from a lot of reputable organized crime stings. It is unfortunate that this was planned and executed poorly, and certainly some people should be losing their jobs, but it is pretty ridiculous to insinuate that Obama had anything to do with it
Crossing international borders to sell guns to known criminals with no way to really track them afterwards...
Stings in the USA are well staffed...
Huge difference.

The fact that it was international means Obama SHOULD have known about it, and I am sure at least AG Holder did...
 
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