Ninja Dude
Sorry, I wasn't listening...
Well, if you face any problems, I'd be perfectly fine with taking a few thousand poverty stricken people off your hands.
BirdNES 3: When Worlds Collide
- Thread starter Birdjaguar
- Start date
Well, if you face any problems, I'd be perfectly fine with taking a few thousand poverty stricken people off your hands.
silver: Hrm yeah OK.
In this period, was the Reformation IRL. In the decades before the Reformation, Erasmus was the main figure of the philosophical movement of Humanism and he exchanged letters with many important figures of the Renaissance world; Humanism quickly became fashionable, and all the best-educated people in Europe had Humanistic educations and held some Humanist perspectives.
At the same time, the Church, in the eyes of many, was corrupt and in need of Reform. There were many reasons for this, but one of the most important was clearly Indulgences. In essence, Catholicism holds that when one dies, the human soul spends a certain amount of time in Purgatory being punished ("doing penance") before moving on to heaven. Catholicism back then sold indulgences, and when a Christian (provided they were not already condemned to hell anyway) bought an indulgence off the Church - and there was much pressure to do so - that human lessened their time in the fires of Purgatory.
The people in favour of the Reformation were the "Protestants" and the originator of the Protestant movement was Martin Luther, whose followers were called Lutherans. He desired to substantially reform the Catholic Church (but without schisms at first), and his concerns were quite limited to start with, mostly relating to indulgences, the use of incomprehensible Latin in services, and to the elevation of Catholic Priests above their congregations (for instance, in Holy Communion, where Christians drink the blood and eat the flesh of Christ in the form of bread and wine, the Catholics only let the Priest get the wine and the congregation just got the bread). Luther also had some doctrinal problems with the Church, and so he published 95 Theses, which were complaints against the Church.
The Church grossly overreacted, and completely refused to take his concerns on board, but yet took him seriously enough to confront him in a series of events including ecclesiastical councils (Synods) and a notable Imperial Diet where Luther was outlawed. The people so vociferously arguing against Luther gradually pushed him into the theological logical conclusions of his views, rendering Lutheranism much more radical than it had been to start with.
Denck was an Anabaptist. He, like several other notable Churchmen, took the most radical approach, taking hold of Luther's ideas and extending them a long way. Anabaptists tended to show a disregard for temporal authority or ecclesiastical organisation, and there were many violent - even anarchistic - Anabaptist revolts. The Peasant's war of 1525 was inspired by Anabaptism and an Anabaptist was its most notable leader. The violent Anabaptsists were more or less eliminated eventually, and the ones that remained were pacifists who saw it as the right thing to do to endure their suffering at the hands of temporal authorities passively.
Zwingli, and Calvin, who followed in much the same tradition, also took a more radical approach than Luther, and Calvinist theology is extreme and even hyperlogical. Specifically, they believe that everything was laid out and predestined by God prior when He created the universe. They believe (unlike Catholics) that all that man does is Sin, that man is sent to heaven by Divine Grace alone, and that God chose before creation whom He would save. They were the strictest and most radical established Protestants after the Reformation, with much more of a doctinal focus; while the Lutherans were most focused on reform in terms of how the Church operated, the Calivinists and Zwinglians (who were largely based in Switzerland and the Netherlands) focused more on doctrine, and drew Luther's conclusions out to their logical radical extremes.
Anabaptists to-day include the Mennonites and Arians; Calvinists to-day include the Reformed Churches and the Presbyterians; Lutherans now comprise the established Church in Germany and Scandinavia. England is a whole different matter, and the Anglicans are basically the specific result of English politics in Tudor times, and not really part of any of the traditions of Calvin, Zwingli, Luther, or the Anabaptists.
Edit: I should add that, at first, Erasmus and Luther had many matters that they agreed on, and Erasmian Humanism was enormously helpful to Lutheranism's development, but Erasmus and Luther gradually fell out in terms of their opinions as Luther was driven into increasing radicalism.
In this period, was the Reformation IRL. In the decades before the Reformation, Erasmus was the main figure of the philosophical movement of Humanism and he exchanged letters with many important figures of the Renaissance world; Humanism quickly became fashionable, and all the best-educated people in Europe had Humanistic educations and held some Humanist perspectives.
At the same time, the Church, in the eyes of many, was corrupt and in need of Reform. There were many reasons for this, but one of the most important was clearly Indulgences. In essence, Catholicism holds that when one dies, the human soul spends a certain amount of time in Purgatory being punished ("doing penance") before moving on to heaven. Catholicism back then sold indulgences, and when a Christian (provided they were not already condemned to hell anyway) bought an indulgence off the Church - and there was much pressure to do so - that human lessened their time in the fires of Purgatory.
The people in favour of the Reformation were the "Protestants" and the originator of the Protestant movement was Martin Luther, whose followers were called Lutherans. He desired to substantially reform the Catholic Church (but without schisms at first), and his concerns were quite limited to start with, mostly relating to indulgences, the use of incomprehensible Latin in services, and to the elevation of Catholic Priests above their congregations (for instance, in Holy Communion, where Christians drink the blood and eat the flesh of Christ in the form of bread and wine, the Catholics only let the Priest get the wine and the congregation just got the bread). Luther also had some doctrinal problems with the Church, and so he published 95 Theses, which were complaints against the Church.
The Church grossly overreacted, and completely refused to take his concerns on board, but yet took him seriously enough to confront him in a series of events including ecclesiastical councils (Synods) and a notable Imperial Diet where Luther was outlawed. The people so vociferously arguing against Luther gradually pushed him into the theological logical conclusions of his views, rendering Lutheranism much more radical than it had been to start with.
Denck was an Anabaptist. He, like several other notable Churchmen, took the most radical approach, taking hold of Luther's ideas and extending them a long way. Anabaptists tended to show a disregard for temporal authority or ecclesiastical organisation, and there were many violent - even anarchistic - Anabaptist revolts. The Peasant's war of 1525 was inspired by Anabaptism and an Anabaptist was its most notable leader. The violent Anabaptsists were more or less eliminated eventually, and the ones that remained were pacifists who saw it as the right thing to do to endure their suffering at the hands of temporal authorities passively.
Zwingli, and Calvin, who followed in much the same tradition, also took a more radical approach than Luther, and Calvinist theology is extreme and even hyperlogical. Specifically, they believe that everything was laid out and predestined by God prior when He created the universe. They believe (unlike Catholics) that all that man does is Sin, that man is sent to heaven by Divine Grace alone, and that God chose before creation whom He would save. They were the strictest and most radical established Protestants after the Reformation, with much more of a doctinal focus; while the Lutherans were most focused on reform in terms of how the Church operated, the Calivinists and Zwinglians (who were largely based in Switzerland and the Netherlands) focused more on doctrine, and drew Luther's conclusions out to their logical radical extremes.
Anabaptists to-day include the Mennonites and Arians; Calvinists to-day include the Reformed Churches and the Presbyterians; Lutherans now comprise the established Church in Germany and Scandinavia. England is a whole different matter, and the Anglicans are basically the specific result of English politics in Tudor times, and not really part of any of the traditions of Calvin, Zwingli, Luther, or the Anabaptists.
Edit: I should add that, at first, Erasmus and Luther had many matters that they agreed on, and Erasmian Humanism was enormously helpful to Lutheranism's development, but Erasmus and Luther gradually fell out in terms of their opinions as Luther was driven into increasing radicalism.
Looks pretty good. Welcome!
1 soldier = 1 gold
1 cannon = 50 gold
Converted merchantman = 150 gold
Galleasses = 250 gold
Dhows = 100 gold (Indian Ocean only)
Caravels = small Junks = 200 gold
Carracks = Medium Junks = 250 gold
Galleons = large Junks = 300 gold
Typically, the church would declare dissenters as heretics and excommunicate them.
Not to my knowledge. That would be the Pope's domain.
On cold winter days such as this when hunting was unpleasant Duke Albert IV or Albert the Wise as he was known among his subjects for his knowledge, prudence, and experience enjoyed listening to debates and lectures on a variety of subjects from the sciences to theology.
His court in the past two decades had become a center for Reformist thought. He had not necessarily intended it that way, after all twenty years ago Luther, Denck, and Calvin were all relatively unknown, yet inevitably his court became known for his famed tolerance and people had flocked to it. Not only was it now filled with Reformist thinkers and scholars, but even Jews and a few Muhammadans. It amused Albert tremendously to set up debates between them and provide ample alcohol.
Albert himself was of the Reformist bent and had followed the Synod with interest he felt greatest sympathy perhaps with the writings of Luther but recently a man had come to his court which had piqued his interest. His name was Hans Friedman Gottlieb from Regensburg and his fairly controversial writings had found him coming to Albert seeking both patronage and protection which had been granted to him.
Today Gottlieb was locked in battle with several people simultaneously, a bishop at the court and a nobleman over the issue of whether the Church had breached the Ten Commandments. The bishop stridently maintained that it had not, while Gottlib boomed that "Those that buy and sell land, and are landlords, have got it either by oppression, or murder, or theft; and all landlords lives in the breach of the Seventh and Eighth Commandments, Thou shalt not steal, nor kill. Is the Church not a landlord? Does the church not own land? Thus the church has breached the commandments."
The bishop responded angrily "The Church has not secured it's land through oppression, murder, or theft. It has been granted to us by grace of God so we may carry out His work on Earth."
"God has not granted the Church this land. In the beginning of time, the great Creator made the Earth to be a common treasury, to preserve beasts, birds, fishes, and man, the lord that was to govern this Creation; for man had domination given to him, over the beasts, birds, and fishes; but not one word was spoken in the beginning, that one branch of mankind should rule over another." Gottlieb
A nobleman interrupted "Surely you do not mean to say that all land owners, such as myself have secured their land by evil or unjust means?"
"I do" said Gottlieb and paused briefly in thought before continuing "The landholder has used all three means to secure its land. First by their oppression. They have by their subtle imaginary and covetous wit, got the plain-hearted poor, or younger brethren to work for them, for small wages, and by their work have got a great increase; for the poor by their labor lifts up tyrants to rule over them; or else by their covetous wit, they have out-reached the plain-hearted in buying and selling, and thereby enriched themselves, but impoverished others: or else by their subtle wit, having been a lifter up into places of rust, have enforced people to pay money for a public use, but have divided much of it into their private purses; and so have got it by oppression.
Then secondly for murder; They have by subtle wit and power, pretended to preserve a people in safety by the power of the sword; and what by large pay, much free-quarter, and other booties, which they call their own, they get much monies, and with this they buy land, and become landlords; and if once landlords, then they rise to be justices, rulers, and state governors, as experience shows: But all this is but a bloody and subtle thievery, countenanced by a law that covetousness made; and is a breach of the Seventh Commandment, Thou shalt not kill.
And likewise thirdly a breach of the Eighth Commandment, Thou shalt not steal; but these landlords have thus stolen the Earth from their fellow creatures, that have an equal share with them, by the Law of Reason and Creation, as well as they."
The nobleman spluttered in outrage and directed his next statement to Albert "My Lord surely you will not tolerate this knave who condemns our God-given bounties?
Albert who had been observing the exchange spoke "I shall not silence a man for speaking his mind. However I do wonder if land is not to be owned then what shall be done what it? How shall it be cultivated? Will it not remain barren and humans barbaric? Will society not break down into chaos and disorder as families are torn apart and men give in to debauchery?"
Gottlieb smiled patiently "No Your Royal Highness, it shall not. Every family shall live apart, as now they do; every man shall enjoy his own wife, and every woman her own husband, as now they do; every trade shall be improved to more excellency than now it is; all children shall be educated, and be trained up in subjection to parents and elder people more than now they are. The earth shall be planted, and the fruits reaped and carried into store-houses, by common assistance of every family. The riches of the store-houses shall be the common stock to every family. There shall be no idle person nor beggar in the land."
The nobleman laughed disdainfully "Ah so it is Eden! And what is to prevent man from oppressing man or from relaxing in idleness in this heaven of yours?"
"If any man abuse his neighbor by provoking words, by striking his person, by offering offense to his neighbor's honor or children, or to his house or furniture therein, or to live idle upon other men’s labors, here are laws to punish them sharply, and officers to see those laws executed, according to the right order of commonwealth’s government, for the peace of every family in the land." said Gottlieb
"What is this commonwealth?" Albert asked
"It was this government which made Moses to call Abraham’s seed one house of Israel, though they were many tribes and many families. And it may be said, ‘Blessed is the people whose earthly government is the law of common righteousness’. While Israel was under this commonwealth’s government, they were a terror to all oppressing kings in all nations of the world; and so may Bavaria be if this righteous law become our governor." answered Gottlieb
The nobleman and bishop looked to Albert waiting for him to condemn the notion. Albert gazed at Gottlieb thoughtfully "I confess your thoughts are fantastical and I do not believe it is possible."
"Then My Lord may I propose a wager?" questioned Gottlieb who knew that gambling along with liquor and food were Albert's vices.
"A wager? Go on."
"Allow me to set up a community of righteousness on empty land. A Christian brotherhood organized on the Laws of Righteousness. If it succeeds without falling into chaos or debauchery then I shall be proved right in which case you My Lord will renounce your current beliefs and embrace mine. Should it fail as Your Highness has predicted then I shall renounce my beliefs and embrace yours."
"A most intriguing proposition. I accept."
Gottlieb smiled "Then I shall make the preparations."
His court in the past two decades had become a center for Reformist thought. He had not necessarily intended it that way, after all twenty years ago Luther, Denck, and Calvin were all relatively unknown, yet inevitably his court became known for his famed tolerance and people had flocked to it. Not only was it now filled with Reformist thinkers and scholars, but even Jews and a few Muhammadans. It amused Albert tremendously to set up debates between them and provide ample alcohol.
Albert himself was of the Reformist bent and had followed the Synod with interest he felt greatest sympathy perhaps with the writings of Luther but recently a man had come to his court which had piqued his interest. His name was Hans Friedman Gottlieb from Regensburg and his fairly controversial writings had found him coming to Albert seeking both patronage and protection which had been granted to him.
Today Gottlieb was locked in battle with several people simultaneously, a bishop at the court and a nobleman over the issue of whether the Church had breached the Ten Commandments. The bishop stridently maintained that it had not, while Gottlib boomed that "Those that buy and sell land, and are landlords, have got it either by oppression, or murder, or theft; and all landlords lives in the breach of the Seventh and Eighth Commandments, Thou shalt not steal, nor kill. Is the Church not a landlord? Does the church not own land? Thus the church has breached the commandments."
The bishop responded angrily "The Church has not secured it's land through oppression, murder, or theft. It has been granted to us by grace of God so we may carry out His work on Earth."
"God has not granted the Church this land. In the beginning of time, the great Creator made the Earth to be a common treasury, to preserve beasts, birds, fishes, and man, the lord that was to govern this Creation; for man had domination given to him, over the beasts, birds, and fishes; but not one word was spoken in the beginning, that one branch of mankind should rule over another." Gottlieb
A nobleman interrupted "Surely you do not mean to say that all land owners, such as myself have secured their land by evil or unjust means?"
"I do" said Gottlieb and paused briefly in thought before continuing "The landholder has used all three means to secure its land. First by their oppression. They have by their subtle imaginary and covetous wit, got the plain-hearted poor, or younger brethren to work for them, for small wages, and by their work have got a great increase; for the poor by their labor lifts up tyrants to rule over them; or else by their covetous wit, they have out-reached the plain-hearted in buying and selling, and thereby enriched themselves, but impoverished others: or else by their subtle wit, having been a lifter up into places of rust, have enforced people to pay money for a public use, but have divided much of it into their private purses; and so have got it by oppression.
Then secondly for murder; They have by subtle wit and power, pretended to preserve a people in safety by the power of the sword; and what by large pay, much free-quarter, and other booties, which they call their own, they get much monies, and with this they buy land, and become landlords; and if once landlords, then they rise to be justices, rulers, and state governors, as experience shows: But all this is but a bloody and subtle thievery, countenanced by a law that covetousness made; and is a breach of the Seventh Commandment, Thou shalt not kill.
And likewise thirdly a breach of the Eighth Commandment, Thou shalt not steal; but these landlords have thus stolen the Earth from their fellow creatures, that have an equal share with them, by the Law of Reason and Creation, as well as they."
The nobleman spluttered in outrage and directed his next statement to Albert "My Lord surely you will not tolerate this knave who condemns our God-given bounties?
Albert who had been observing the exchange spoke "I shall not silence a man for speaking his mind. However I do wonder if land is not to be owned then what shall be done what it? How shall it be cultivated? Will it not remain barren and humans barbaric? Will society not break down into chaos and disorder as families are torn apart and men give in to debauchery?"
Gottlieb smiled patiently "No Your Royal Highness, it shall not. Every family shall live apart, as now they do; every man shall enjoy his own wife, and every woman her own husband, as now they do; every trade shall be improved to more excellency than now it is; all children shall be educated, and be trained up in subjection to parents and elder people more than now they are. The earth shall be planted, and the fruits reaped and carried into store-houses, by common assistance of every family. The riches of the store-houses shall be the common stock to every family. There shall be no idle person nor beggar in the land."
The nobleman laughed disdainfully "Ah so it is Eden! And what is to prevent man from oppressing man or from relaxing in idleness in this heaven of yours?"
"If any man abuse his neighbor by provoking words, by striking his person, by offering offense to his neighbor's honor or children, or to his house or furniture therein, or to live idle upon other men’s labors, here are laws to punish them sharply, and officers to see those laws executed, according to the right order of commonwealth’s government, for the peace of every family in the land." said Gottlieb
"What is this commonwealth?" Albert asked
"It was this government which made Moses to call Abraham’s seed one house of Israel, though they were many tribes and many families. And it may be said, ‘Blessed is the people whose earthly government is the law of common righteousness’. While Israel was under this commonwealth’s government, they were a terror to all oppressing kings in all nations of the world; and so may Bavaria be if this righteous law become our governor." answered Gottlieb
The nobleman and bishop looked to Albert waiting for him to condemn the notion. Albert gazed at Gottlieb thoughtfully "I confess your thoughts are fantastical and I do not believe it is possible."
"Then My Lord may I propose a wager?" questioned Gottlieb who knew that gambling along with liquor and food were Albert's vices.
"A wager? Go on."
"Allow me to set up a community of righteousness on empty land. A Christian brotherhood organized on the Laws of Righteousness. If it succeeds without falling into chaos or debauchery then I shall be proved right in which case you My Lord will renounce your current beliefs and embrace mine. Should it fail as Your Highness has predicted then I shall renounce my beliefs and embrace yours."
"A most intriguing proposition. I accept."
Gottlieb smiled "Then I shall make the preparations."
LittleBoots
The Bloody Banner
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2006
- Messages
- 1,979
Spry: Yes, so long as Italy does not erupt into war, the Pope will attend.
Everyone involved in the New World:
I shall speak plainly because the deadline approacheth, but this is pretty much all in my statement about compromise.
* The original treaty was put into place by the Papacy in the hope that the New World might be freed from wars between Christian kings.
* The original treaty specifically does not disallow other colonists to the New World.
* At the same time, the original treaty (by virtue of its existence) lays out a general method for entrance into the New World; namely, through arrangement and coordination with the Body of Christ (specifically, through the Pope). This procedure exists in order to avoid war in the New World. If a place can be found for you in the New World as ordained by the Church, then no competition need exist between the separate ministers of God's word.
* England and Scotland settled in the New World without going through such a procedure.
* Nevertheless, these colonies already exist where no ministers existed before.
* They cannot go without chastisement because then there would be no incentive to heed our words about the New World, and the hope that Christian unity in the New World might be maintained will die with the breakdown of order.
For our part, we will not agree to close the New World to colonization by future powers. We have never said anything which would give even the impression that we would do so. At the same time, we will not discriminate against our faithful children Spain and Portugal for the foolishness of working with our office, for if we stood by and did nothing it would be foolishness to have worked together for the kingdom of God. Spain and Portugal have faithfully and peacefully coexisted in the New World working for the conversion of the pagans, and deserve much praise for this great work. We would see England and Scotland work alongside them, but only if all parties begin assuming the disposition of humility and sacrifice without which all hope of resolution is lost.
In conclusion:
*You cannot escape the Law of God. If you remove yourself from the Law of the Church, you automatically place yourself under the Law of Nature. If a solution cannot be reached, the Body of Christ in the New World will tear itself apart as it so often does in the Old World, and we will become a stumbling block unto the pagans.
Everyone involved in the New World:
I shall speak plainly because the deadline approacheth, but this is pretty much all in my statement about compromise.
* The original treaty was put into place by the Papacy in the hope that the New World might be freed from wars between Christian kings.
* The original treaty specifically does not disallow other colonists to the New World.
* At the same time, the original treaty (by virtue of its existence) lays out a general method for entrance into the New World; namely, through arrangement and coordination with the Body of Christ (specifically, through the Pope). This procedure exists in order to avoid war in the New World. If a place can be found for you in the New World as ordained by the Church, then no competition need exist between the separate ministers of God's word.
* England and Scotland settled in the New World without going through such a procedure.
* Nevertheless, these colonies already exist where no ministers existed before.
* They cannot go without chastisement because then there would be no incentive to heed our words about the New World, and the hope that Christian unity in the New World might be maintained will die with the breakdown of order.
For our part, we will not agree to close the New World to colonization by future powers. We have never said anything which would give even the impression that we would do so. At the same time, we will not discriminate against our faithful children Spain and Portugal for the foolishness of working with our office, for if we stood by and did nothing it would be foolishness to have worked together for the kingdom of God. Spain and Portugal have faithfully and peacefully coexisted in the New World working for the conversion of the pagans, and deserve much praise for this great work. We would see England and Scotland work alongside them, but only if all parties begin assuming the disposition of humility and sacrifice without which all hope of resolution is lost.
In conclusion:
*You cannot escape the Law of God. If you remove yourself from the Law of the Church, you automatically place yourself under the Law of Nature. If a solution cannot be reached, the Body of Christ in the New World will tear itself apart as it so often does in the Old World, and we will become a stumbling block unto the pagans.
Kentharu
Zebra Commander
I await a response from you LB. If you have time can you come on #nes?
Abaddon
Deity
Karalysia, I enjoyed that story a lot 
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
@LB I'm sorry but it seems as if you are being confusing still. You say they can't be there, but they are there yet you don't care they are there yet they are against your wishes. It isn't clear what you are saying, and I can't figure out who you're supporting.
I think he is saying that the English and Scottish colonies can stay and that they need to ask the Pope's permission/blessing to keep them there if they wants to remain in the good graces of the Church.
Karalysia, I enjoyed that story a lot
Thanks, but if you're talking about Gottlieb's dialogue, then it's not mine, it's all this guy:
http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/winstanley/index.htm
Alfred, bishop, and nobleman are me. Gottlieb is Winstanley.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
TO: Henry VIII, King of England; James V, King of Scotland; Joao II, King of Portugal
FROM: Juan I, King of Spain and Navarre, Prince of Algiers
My brothers in faith, given the most honorable of positions on this world by our Lord, we must come to a compromise before conflict is brought before us. I, in my wisdom and generosity, have the following offer to make, countering that of both sides, even my own, and meeting in a middle ground that is fairly more sensible to the kingdoms involved. Below is a map, dividing the new world between ourselves, with further claims to be added for Scotland and Spain when the lands are explored, and the islands being granted to the king of England and Portugal as shown. This will be the final offer given, to prevent war and spread our faith evenly and fairly across this new world which Spain had discovered by the divine winds of God. Think deeply about this, for it is the best I can do with what is given, and England and Scotland should accept this division as it prevents the might of Spain being brought forth.
FROM: Juan I, King of Spain and Navarre, Prince of Algiers
My brothers in faith, given the most honorable of positions on this world by our Lord, we must come to a compromise before conflict is brought before us. I, in my wisdom and generosity, have the following offer to make, countering that of both sides, even my own, and meeting in a middle ground that is fairly more sensible to the kingdoms involved. Below is a map, dividing the new world between ourselves, with further claims to be added for Scotland and Spain when the lands are explored, and the islands being granted to the king of England and Portugal as shown. This will be the final offer given, to prevent war and spread our faith evenly and fairly across this new world which Spain had discovered by the divine winds of God. Think deeply about this, for it is the best I can do with what is given, and England and Scotland should accept this division as it prevents the might of Spain being brought forth.
Spoiler :
In regards to Orders; Thanks for them and keep them coming.
BTW, I do not select heirs. It is the job of players to plan out succession. You may choose your heirs to match OTL or not and get them born. It is my job to create untimely and inconvenient deaths or have them live well beyond their usefulness.
BTW, I do not select heirs. It is the job of players to plan out succession. You may choose your heirs to match OTL or not and get them born. It is my job to create untimely and inconvenient deaths or have them live well beyond their usefulness.
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