Yeah....I'll resend orders with those adjustments.
BirdNES 3: When Worlds Collide
- Thread starter Birdjaguar
- Start date
Yeah....I'll resend orders with those adjustments.
Abaddon
Deity
Progress update please?
Oruc
Reactionary
I don't think he has everyones orders yet
Abaddon
Deity
An I doubt he will.. makes me sad, such an amazing NES not getting a rapid turn around.
Was more wondering who we are still waiting on.. i'd go badger them
Was more wondering who we are still waiting on.. i'd go badger them
Lots of long complicated orders this turn. Typically, my outline has 4-6 items per nation to be included in the update. This round many have more than 10 and one over twenty, many of which had to reconciled with other nations' orders. that one alone took me all Sunday evening to work through the stats and actions. I'm pretty good on the orders now with only a few stragglers. At this point I don't wait for them. On a good evening I'll get two nations updated and outlined given the interruptions for modding and wifely demands, as well as, having evening meetings for work.
germanicus12
First Citizen of Rome
I should have mine in tonight.
Immaculate
unerring
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2003
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Sorry BJ. Who's the 20 events culprit?
(and how is that possible with limited IP)
(and how is that possible with limited IP)
Abaddon
Deity
Yeah, cant' decide if I love or hate the IP rule.. I guess that means it is a success!? 
Events that go into the outline and then the update are not all IP driven. They are the things which the players have included in their orders that seem worthy of being mentioned because they may affect other players or play itself. An easy example would be a wedding or the birth of children or even death. Generally, I don't mention much about tech progress because it shows up in the stats, but if players are doing stuff that has an effect on that progress internally or with other nations, then some mention may be warranted. Even it it were secret, I have to let that player know something about the effects of his efforts via pm. I try not to ignore it. The same works for exploration, if a nation sends ships to explore, the exact results may not be shown on a posted map, but generally, I need to mention that the exploration did take place and then create a "private" map of its results.
And now that nations have more money to spend, they are doing more. Now if England, say, spend money to build up a colony and I don't mention it in the update in some way, what will happen? You, in all likelihood, will either post or pm me about the fact that I did not mention it and was it forgotten. Then I will respond, "no, blah blah blah..." By the way don't take that reference to England personally at all. I could have used anyone as an example. So by trying to get lots of references to things ordered, I save having to tell players after the update none-the-less.
One solution to this order creep problem is to have a "great recession" and cut everyone's gold by 50%. BTW, in addition to adding Rulers' ages to the stats, I've added greater variability to world trade. This means that the amount of trade taking place in a trading region will fluctuate more. It could drop as low as 25% of average to 150% of average from turn to turn. So you might see your trade stat drop one turn and go way up the next depending upon in which areas you have trade routes. ATM the Indian Ocean is the latest hot spot for trade and lots of activity there helps everyone with that as a trade route. But should war or piracy manifest itself in that region, trade might fall substantially for everyone. And because trade is mathematically linked between players and regions based on nations' economies, I can never predict the outcome.
At this moment, part way through the update, her are the total value of trade in each of these areas:
Persian Gulf to India: 95
Indonesia Spice Islands: 93
Silk Road: 91
China to India: 86
Indian Ocean: 51
Red Sea to India: 40
China Japan Philippine: 27
East Coast of Africa: 21
West Coast of Africa: 11
Trans Sahara 5
In general, the more nations participating in a trade route, the higher the value of the total trade. If important goods are added to the formula, the value goes even higher. Monoplies do not increase trade, just the value of the trade to the owner.
Immaculate
unerring
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thank you for the extensive review.
I hope one day, in 3 years or more, when this NES is retired, you provide your excel sheets so lesser mods can copy you. I am openly and unapologeticly saying that i will continue to steal all your good ideas and include them in my own games.
Its the greatest compliment a man can give.
Actually, that might sound flippant but i would someday really like to see your excel sheets. I hope you don't mind (either me stealing ideas or the idea of sharing your system)
I hope one day, in 3 years or more, when this NES is retired, you provide your excel sheets so lesser mods can copy you. I am openly and unapologeticly saying that i will continue to steal all your good ideas and include them in my own games.
Its the greatest compliment a man can give. Actually, that might sound flippant but i would someday really like to see your excel sheets. I hope you don't mind (either me stealing ideas or the idea of sharing your system)
Terrance888
Discord Reigns
Yay! My finger is stuck in all these pies!
BTW: I think I spent over 10000 on trade to/from the Indian Ocean, what with 1000 dollar merchant enclaves and warehouses, workshops and whatnot. A Secret to success!
Immaculate
unerring
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what do the little ,,,, mean in the stats for trade routes?
In the past I have posted my spreadsheets after I have cleaned them up a bit. The current one is terrible complicated and difficult since it keeps all entries for each turn. Parts of it don't work like I expected and I have to jigger things a bit. TBH is is a pretty good first draft, but needs to be reorganized and tweaked now that I have used it for six turns.
They are separators so when more routes are added, things won't run together. The formula that fills in the trade route stat line looks like this:
The red bit is the built in comma that will separate any routes listed. When I enter your nation's economic contribution into a trade route, in any cell H8 thru U8, the formula grabs the value in row 6 above and puts it in the stats. Row 6 has the trade route abreviations: "InO" or "WCAf" etc. The forumla looks complicated, but it is just repetitious as it gathers information from lots of columns. The bolded part is for one route that is repeted. The economic value then gets added to the value of the route which is divided among the countries participating.
To simplify:
Nation A contributes 10 to trade
Nation B 20
Nation C 5
Total value of the route = 35 unmodified.
Nation A gets 35 - 10 = 25 trade
Nation B gets 35 - 20 = 15
And C gets 35 - 5 = 30
If war reduced the trade by 20% then 21 would be the base number for the calculations.
germanicus12
First Citizen of Rome
I sent the orders, but they are incomplete, I accidentally sent them before I was able to complete the Actions portion of the orders. I will resend a new order to include those Actions tomorrow. Just delete the one I sent today. Thanks.
Will do. Thanks.
Abaddon
Deity
I really don't enjoy it when you "fudge" things like this.. everyone is effected equally, why does it matter if our economies grow? I get deep satisfaction from the progress made as the nation is under my control. If you are tweaking things against this in the background.. whats the point?
You make the rules, we play by them and can measure our success. That's impossible if you keep shifting the goalposts.
Its like halfway through building a house of Lego, you are going to knock it down and demand I start again...
Isn't this the era of nations being truly transformed by the explosive growth?
Why isn't there a Europe one? Med/Northern Europe.. will be important for when we get there.. also, nothing for "America" ? Could we also see the stats without the randomised percentage modification? I'm quite shocked trade between CJP is only nominally larger than the deserted East Coast of Africa!!!?!?! Whats with that?
This seems the wrong way around. Why does the nation who contributes the least, receive the most?
Immaculate
unerring
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A great recession IS just around the corner. Historically Spanish silver from the New World led to incredible inflation. One way of modeling the reduced capacity of coin to buy resources is to reduce incomes to show that coin doesn’t buy as must anymore.
Alternatively, as I have recently learned, a plague can have similar effects as it shuts down production from dead populations, shuts down trade as merchants fear exposure to virus, etc.
Ultimately however, the game has to be moderatable. If the moderator is overwhelmed by the orders he or she is receiving, then the game becomes too bulky and cannot continue. So a balance has to be struck between game growth and playability. Ultimately playability must win or the game, by definition, becomes unplayable. And besides, most of us don’t care how much absolute funds we have, as long as more then our neighbor ☺.
Potentially a solution might be to limit what can be done without an IP, so economic growth continues apace but as states become larger and more complex, their growing complexity requires a more focused approach to any project, whether big or small.
birdjaguar said:
Having only limited knowledge of this period (Wikipedia, Power and Plenty- Ronald Findlay, Kevin H. O'Rourke – 2009, Conversatiosn on #NES), I would be inclined to agree with Abaddon. If its possible, without completely wrecking things, there should be trade routes for the Mediterranean and for the Baltic sea. I don’t know much about the first but the Baltic sea seems to have been very important during this period especially for the rising power of Denmark. Again, however, it becomes an issue of whether it is worth it. I suspect that incorporating new trade lanes in your system would involves a significant amount of Excel coding, a lot of beer, a squinty headache, and a worried wife.
Milarqui
Deity
Damn, and just now when I had found the South African mines... At least I still have the trade with East Asia (didn't want to put all my eggs on the same basket, you know)
Only time, atm, for a short answer. Each region has its own internal trade that contributes to each nation's economy. That is why you don't need to make trade agreements with your neighbors. If China (or other distant nation) gets to Europe, then I will add a European trade route for them. When Songhai sent traders north through the Sahara, I created the Trans Sahara route. Colonial trade is almost non existent (compared to established trade) except for bits and pieces going to the home country and that is already accounted for in stats.
Thewest east coast of Africa is not deserted at all and has been a source of vigorous trade for hundreds of years. CJP trade value is tied mostly to the economies of the player nations there plus those nations who have developed it through trades.
Abaddon, you also have to keep in mind that while China has a huge economy, most of it is internal and not trade related. I have used this system now for two NESes and it works pretty well and the glitches have been worked out.
Creating new trade routes is very simple: I just title a new column with the name and add in the values of the nations involved. All the links are built in.
The
Abaddon, you also have to keep in mind that while China has a huge economy, most of it is internal and not trade related. I have used this system now for two NESes and it works pretty well and the glitches have been worked out.
Creating new trade routes is very simple: I just title a new column with the name and add in the values of the nations involved. All the links are built in.
Not* when I get down there... so shalt the African Crusades begin.
*I'll be willing to sell 'colonists' though, as long as they're treated better than the slaves were originally, because I'm a religious order.
PS. If anyone has plans there or wants to kill-steal my plans, then please PM me if you're ok working together or at least warning me off if you're much bigger or closer.
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