Bismarck vs Hitler: End of debate!

[MAS]

Wel, my kind of thoughtless expression only underlines the fact this is not about political correctness, couse i'm not the person to fall over it to often!
And it did got the message through! Some attention was all i wanted anyway.

Don't worry, exept for some minior details, i love America.

That said, i'm happy to see i'm not allone on this, but where were your reactions in this other thread? The one where ppl complained about the leaders.

 

[unscratchedfoot]

Originally posted by ViceRoy


Well Panzer UU can present all great tanks German had Tigers/Panthers/PZ IV
However problem is that currently they don't really present the how overwhelming they were when compared to allied tanks. But all you need to do is little bit change the stats to give them more power.

Stukas were OK in air bombarding but needed badly fighters to escort them as they were quite vulnerable.

Railway artillery/panzer-grenadiers/garde-du-corps...well they aren't so "special"...you could give them the first rockets if really looking into it representing V-1 and V-2.

U-Boat would be excellent choice as German subs terrorized the allied atlantic fleets and the million of tons they sunked is amazing.

Too bad there isn't "anti-tank" option available...
Then there would be change to give 88 (same which was used in "Elephant" and "King Tiger" tank) to germans as UU...
That would be nice unit in it's time I bet...

In overall game panzers are fine in my opinion...

All these units, except the 88, are available for download in the unit graphics section. Why not give them a try? I would never play civ3 without them.

As far as the debate goes, I gotta give a thumbs up for having Hitler as the german leader. I used him since I got the game and just switched to Kohl for variety. With bismark there is no feeling of war or history. I want an authentic feel to my game to give me motivation to play so I need the best leaders and units. By the way, political correctness = narrow minded bigotry.

 

[MAS]

unscratchedfoot,
what you say about political correctness is absolutely true!
But how does Hitler as the german leader gives a feel of history and war?
If you play a WWII scenario or something you wouldn't hear me about it, but for a leader that somehow coveres "al" germany over a larger History...
Its like using GBJr for an American leader in civ3, to pick a somewhat warped example! While Lincoln is a obviusly beter choice. (I hope you understand)

Its not that i'm telling you what to do with your own copy of civ3 or anything. But if you are serious about Hitler adding to a feel of history, then maybe you have some narrow ideas about history. In my (obviusly not very humble) opinion.

 

[Hamlet]

If you think that Bismark doesn't give off a feeling of 'War or history' then, quite frankly, you don't know enough about Bismark.

German unification and The Franco-Prussian war, anyone?

And why the hell would you want to chose Kohl?

 

[Portuguese]

Originally posted by MAS
Wel, my kind of thoughtless expression only underlines the fact this is not about political correctness, couse i'm not the person to fall over it to often!
And it did got the message through! Some attention was all i wanted anyway.

Don't worry, exept for some minior details, i love America.

That said, i'm happy to see i'm not allone on this, but where were your reactions in this other thread? The one where ppl complained about the leaders.

If memory serves me correctly, I argued in that one...

 

[ViceRoy]

I have all those units
But giving those all to German in normal game seems to be little unfair...

It's all about how much history you know and which part of the history you are interested in. If you are WW2 fan you take Hitler...

But I would never pick Hitler as my first choice for represent the leader of German Civilization...
What comes to political correctness...I think putting Stalin, Roosevelt and Hitler to game would make it look almost humorous affair...

I'm in firm believe that people who claim that usually people don't learn about past as they only see one hundred years behind or people are talking like first humans were born in renaissance or during the enlightment of 1700 or 2000 years ago. Learning "real" history goes little bit further than the normal documentary or "Band of Brothers".

 

[Panda]

Originally posted by Hamlet
If you think that Bismark doesn't give off a feeling of 'War or history' then, quite frankly, you don't know enough about Bismark.

 

[Portuguese]

Bismark peacefull?!?!?!?!?!?!?

 

[Kilroy]

Originally posted by MAS
Wel, my kind of thoughtless expression only underlines the fact this is not about political correctness, couse i'm not the person to fall over it to often!
And it did got the message through! Some attention was all i wanted anyway.

Don't worry, exept for some minior details, i love America.

That said, i'm happy to see i'm not allone on this, but where were your reactions in this other thread? The one where ppl complained about the leaders.

Glad to hear you got the message. Sometimes strong words are the only way to get a point across. I didn't think anyone would actually take the first part seriously though - unfortunately a mod did

TOO BAD THE MODERATORS APPEAR TO MISTAKE CFC FOR SOME KIND OF DAY CARE. WANT ME TO WARM SOME MILK?

 

[Hitro]

What is the point about the leaders in Civ?

1. Aren't they supposed to be people who brought their Civ forward?

That completely disqualifies Hitler. Hitler didn't bring Germany any step forward, on the contrary he led the country to a catastrophe that's probably worse than any other anywhere else, especially considering the short amount of time he needed. He swept away all morals, led the murder of millions of completely innocent people, ruined the country, its reputation and lost territories.
Really great

2. Shouldn't they have been rulers of their country?

That disqualifies Bismarck (and also Joan of Arc). Obviously some people here don't know too much about the guy but he was "just" the Chancellor of Germany. He wasn't the ruler, that was the Kaiser, who, ultimately, sacked him. So although he was behind the construction of the Second Reich he was never its ruler.

Barbarossa could have been a good choice, but I guess many people don't know him either. Frederik the Great was a Prussian king and not a German Kaiser.
So they could have chosen a Kaiser of the Second Reich, preferably the stupid William the Second, he also has that "war feeling" people seem to want (btw, Bismarck started wars against Denmark and France as well as the Prussia-Austria war for hegemony over Germany...)

Fortunately the game has an editor so that it is not a big problem to change it...

 

[unscratchedfoot]

Originally posted by Hamlet
If you think that Bismark doesn't give off a feeling of 'War or history' then, quite frankly, you don't know enough about Bismark.

German unification and The Franco-Prussian war, anyone?

And why the hell would you want to chose Kohl?

We've all learned about bismark in high school, but before you try to start a fight, maybe you should get on the internet and find out who Kohl is. DUH

MAS: You say I have some narrow ideas of history just because I used Hitler as my german leaderhead? I don't think I'm the one being narrow-minded here.

There seem to be a lot of bigots on this thread. Why can't we all just choose the leaders we want to use and be done with all the "only my idea is the right one" attitude? I could make Oprah Winfrey the leader of America if I wanted to right? She controls over half of the population doesn't she? We can easily argue that any weirdo could be leader and say that everyone else is wrong.

 

[rbelmont]

I agree that a civs UU shouldnt be associated with their leader. Afterall there werent any F-15s flying around the time of Lincoln.

But you guys say the Aztec leader is a guy? O_o I always thought that was an old lady.

 

[Hamlet]

Originally posted by unscratchedfoot
We've all learned about bismark in high school,

Then, if you know about him, how does he not give off a sense of 'war or history'?

Originally posted by unscratchedfoot
but before you try to start a fight, maybe you should get on the internet and find out who Kohl is. DUH

I know quite a lot about Kohl, thank you, so your inferences are misplaced. I just wanted to know exactly why he would qualify as representative of The German people in your games.

He's not the greatest leader of Germany by a long shot.

Quite frankly, I don't give a damn about who you chose as your leaders, I just like to know your reasoning for chosing them.

Originally posted by Hitro
That disqualifies Bismarck (and also Joan of Arc). Obviously some people here don't know too much about the guy but he was "just" the Chancellor of Germany. He wasn't the ruler, that was the Kaiser, who, ultimately, sacked him. So although he was behind the construction of the Second Reich he was never its ruler.

Obviously, though, there's a qualitative difference between the amount of power Bismarck had over the government in comparison to Joan.

It wasn't exactly William I who was calling all the major policy decisions, was it?

I'd say Bismarck was the virtual ruler of Germany over that period. He had control of most major demoestic and foreign policy decisions.

Incidentally, Bismarck almost took on a sort of semi-permanence until William II sacked him. He outlived two Kaisers.

 

[W.i.n.t.e.r]

And another futile discussion without purpose or solution

Why doesn't anybody make a different leader per era? eg.

Germany:

Bronce Age: Hermann (Arminius)
Middle Age: Barbarossa
Industrial Age: Bismarck
---
(then there should be an Era called the "20th century just for all the things that have changed in in) so:
---
20th century: Hitler
Modern Age: Kohl (etc)

 

[Hitro]

Originally posted by unscratchedfoot
There seem to be a lot of bigots on this thread. Why can't we all just choose the leaders we want to use and be done with all the "only my idea is the right one" attitude?

Sure we can, but why this thread then? Isn't it about who should have been the leader in the default settings, in the game as it's made by Firaxis? After all a whole lot of people don't even know how to use the editor...
For your information, I also use Hitler as the German leader in my personal game. I've replaced all other leaders with modern leaders (current ones, Bush, Blair, etc.) which doesn't make any sense at all. But as you said I can choose that myself and that's good, but I'd never suggest that it should have been in the original game.
And what's so bad about talking about it?

We've all learned about bismark in high school, but before you try to start a fight, maybe you should get on the internet and find out who Kohl is. DUH

I guess I know who Kohl is, and I would prefer Göring as the leader. Or Thierse

Originally posted by Hamlet
Obviously, though, there's a qualitative difference between the amount of power Bismarck had over the government in comparison to Joan.

It wasn't exactly William I who was calling all the major policy decisions, was it?

I'd say Bismarck was the virtual ruler of Germany over that period. He had control of most major demoestic and foreign policy decisions.

Incidentally, Bismarck almost took on a sort of semi-permanence until William II sacked him. He outlived two Kaisers.

You're right that he had alot of power and that he was effectively in charge of Prussia and later the Reich. But he was always dependent on the Kaiser which means he could only act along the basic ideas of the Kaiser. If he would have left them he would have been sacked earlier. And another thing is that, as far as I know, the people saw the Kaiser and not him as their leader.

 

[W.i.n.t.e.r]

Thierse ????????????????????????????????????????????? Don't forget the Lawnmower !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[W.i.n.t.e.r]

The truth is that there have been quite a few important German rulers in this nation's recent (2500 years ! ) history in Europe... Hitler is well known, yes- a powerful and mystic figure. He was there for 12 years only and is renown for Germany's incredible achievements in that short period- but heand Bismarck are not the only great figures in our history.

In this sense we will find it impossible to create one suitable leader !!! This thread is the very prove of that !!! There is a leaderhead for Hitler- if U want replace it... what is the big deal ?? Of course if U'd rather see Frederik the Great, Herrman, Barbarossa- or Thierse (well with THAT beard he might well be an unfortunate reincarnation ) U just have to hope that someone will create one- perhaps U should ask Swenn in the creation forum !!!

 

[Hitro]

Originally posted by W.i.n.t.e.r
Thierse ????????????????????????????????????????????? Don't forget the Lawnmower !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was speaking in relative terms...
And you should have followed German politics in the last days to get that one.

But great that you questioned Thierse and not Göring!

 

[MAS]

I lay awake at night, crying, knowing that some person who probably lives on the other side of the ocian and all i know about is that he uses the nickname "unscratchedfoot" in a fan forum for a computer game, uses a picture of Hitler to represent Germany in his own copy of that same computer game!
I kid you not!

To the moderator:
Oof, that's some ugly head you put there in Kilroy's post! I have seen pictures of decapitated ppl on the internet that where less disgusting to look at. Please use a cartoon of a crying person or something, that would look a lot better! Do it for the small children!

EDIT: I forgot to say, i'm not German myself, I'm Dutch, and don't you ever confuse the two nations! The next time i see a WWII-movie with Dutch ppl speaking German I'm going to hijack an airplane and crash it into some filmstudio in hollywood!
Anyway, but that detaches me even more from the political issues.

(Disclaimer: please don't take it to serious :yinyang: )

 

[W.i.n.t.e.r]

Not so distant are our Dutch cousins to ourselves, the Germans- with all due respect, of course- U'd be surprised how similar the language/dialect is to Dutch even in some parts of Germany (but I understand your point- and aim for Warner Bros. if U please- might even join U when I think of all those war movies with crappy fake German in em)

Guten Flug

ps I really love the Belgians who claim they R not speaking Dutch but Flämisch (needless to say that I was laughing with their radio comercials a lot cuz I understand them- only that it sounds like childrens talk to German ears