Blasting the myth of the "moderate Muslim majority" , using one of their icons . . .

[eyrei]

Moderator Action: This thread is not about any poster on this site. Discuss the topic please. Eyrei.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Winner]

So do yours.

Here's some free advice:

Your ardent postings on these matters do nothing for the good name of Hindu moderates....

- my response deleted -

 

[Katheryn]

I think the problem is that real moderates are rarely mouthpieces of faith, as they tend to live simply without a need for devisivness, what I mean is the real moderates are often overwhelmed by those who have some political platform or idealist rant to propogate; the press reports those views that are contreversial more often, and people tend to assign more significance to such viewpoints. Regardless of whether they are the majority, the uninformed or biased percieve it that way. After all you remember controversy far easier than you do tolerance and peace, sometimes that's all people see or want to see.


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True, but I think that many of the more zealous Muslims, the more dangerous ones, believe that this constitutes apostasy. And according to the lifestyle encouraged by Mohammed, they very well might be.

 

[Lambert Simnel]

And you forget - when I started my first thread called "Clearing up misconceptions about Islam , and a request . . . ." , I was alone . I had to single-handedly take up intellectual arms against what was then probably the entire forum . It was only after that that the core group which I refer to as on my side began to coalesce into the semi-organised unit it is today .

Wow. Delusions of grandeur, possibly. Or maybe it's just that I forget the times that ole MobBoss, Winner, VRWCAgent, IglooDude, Panda and Red Stranger used to surf around the forums, supporting Islam, and denouncing anyone who criticised Muslims in the least. Thank goodness you were here to enlighten them, aneeshm!

 

[Lambert Simnel]

So in starting this thread , I've already got the opposition down to the last line of defense . Once I finish them there , that'll be it . My side will have won .

And let me be the first to congratulate you! For I am sure that, with as important a subject as this, you will not less any false humility stand in the way of appointing yourself the jury as to when you have "finished them" - frankly, the rest of us clearly understand it too little (despite your plentiful insights) to be trusted with such a judgement.

PS Gotta admit it - I haven't watched the three hour video clip. I'm reluctant to watch 5 minutes of any religious leaders never mind 3 hours, to be honest. Can I still get my "fundamental tolerist" membership card ?

 

[ulsterman88]

I have little respect for the muslim majority they are too sensitive in that they fly of the handle when something is said about thier presious religion but they openly burn western flags and get away with saying anything they want, about whatever they want.

 

[Norlamand]

Moderate muslims aren't true muslims. Sort of like Jews for Jesus or Pro-abortion Catholics. Abide by the rules of the club or don't put forth the pretense of being a member.

 

[C~G]

Moderate muslims aren't true muslims. Sort of like Jews for Jesus or Pro-abortion Catholics. Abide by the rules of the club or don't put forth the pretense of being a member.

So you have now authority decide who's moderate muslim and who's true muslim?

I guess I use my authority then tell that someone can be muslim even if he doesn't read Quran, never heard of Mecca and doesn't know who Muhammed is.

 

[Norlamand]

Then you should read the Quran. Muslims accept it as the unalterable, perfect and final word of Allah. It is to be followed as is, not diced up for the "pick and choose" Western approach to religion. If nothing else, I respect their intent to keep their religion authentic and authoratative, not morphed every generation to suit the tastes of the mosque attendees du jour.

 

[C~G]

So by your definition, someone who doesn't follow the Bible from word to word isn't moderate christian or even true christian?

 

[Norlamand]

Not much of one, no. It is near impossible to follow every aspect of the teachings of any religion to the letter 100% of the time. It is another matter altogether to decide not to follow the core teachings because you don't feel like it or don't feel they apply. You can't run a football team if half of the players are playing by baseball. If you join the club, play by the rules of find another club.

 

[C~G]

Not much of one, no. It is near impossible to follow every aspect of the teachings of any religion to the letter 100% of the time.

I agree.

It is another matter altogether to decide not to follow the core teachings because you don't feel like it or don't feel they apply.

What do you consider to be the core teachings of Christianity and Islam then which the followers cannot leave?

You can't run a football team if half of the players are playing by baseball. If you join the club, play by the rules of find another club.

So are you saying that if muslim wants to be moderate he would have to leave his faith?
Person might find a new sect for Islam but wouldn't leave his religion and his heritage. That is absurd idea.

 

[Katheryn]

Then you should read the Quran. Muslims accept it as the unalterable, perfect and final word of Allah. It is to be followed as is, not diced up for the "pick and choose" Western approach to religion. If nothing else, I respect their intent to keep their religion authentic and authoratative, not morphed every generation to suit the tastes of the mosque attendees du jour.

Hmmm... I don't think Western Christians would agree that they use a 'pick and choose' approach to religion.

The approach is called "reading the Bible in context".

Historical narrative shouldn't be misconstrued to be examples of personal behavior.

The Old Testament is not an instruction manual, but is the foundation for the New Testament, which is.

We don't ignore imperatives related to unfamiliar cultural norms, but we use deduction to compare them to issues we have in a more modern culture.

And especially, we don't depend upon anyone else's interpretation of Scripture. We depend upon our personal prayer life, devotional disciplines, and willing spirit to comprehend the scriptures.

 

[Katheryn]

So by your definition, someone who doesn't follow the Bible from word to word isn't moderate christian or even true christian?

Converting to Christianity is a one time experience that happens only once. You can't stop being a Christian unless you apostasize.

Apostasy in Christianity is denying Jesus Christ, as in saying He did not exist or did not carry your burdens, sins. Also you would commit apostasy if you deny He is the Son of God.

The Shahad (the 1st pillar of Islam) is a declaration of belief in Islam. In the Shahad, you deny that God has any partners. This is a direct reference to the Trinity, or any other 'polytheistic' concepts of God. This is an act of apostasy.

So, in other words, God would never turn His back upon a Christian, and would never lose their 'salvation', but a person can turn his back upon Christ.

Behavior of a Christian is only evidence of his faith. If you believe a tsunami is going to hit the beach, you would run. It is evidence that you believe it. If any man doesn't have faith, he is instructed to ask and he will receive in abundance.

 

[Norlamand]

I agree.
What do you consider to be the core teachings of Christianity and Islam then which the followers cannot leave?
So are you saying that if muslim wants to be moderate he would have to leave his faith?
Person might find a new sect for Islam but wouldn't leave his religion and his heritage. That is absurd idea.

1) I wouldn't join any club that is likely to cut my head of if I decide to leave. Nor would I advise anyone to join one.

2) A different sect of Islam may suit the person but the rest of Islam will likely consider them apostates or blasphemers as the Shia generally are regarded by the the Sunni. The Sunni (Wahabi) have actually launched jihad against the Shia in the past.

 

[Norlamand]

Hmmm... I don't think Western Christians would agree that they use a 'pick and choose' approach to religion.

The approach is called "reading the Bible in context".

Historical narrative shouldn't be misconstrued to be examples of personal behavior.

The Old Testament is not an instruction manual, but is the foundation for the New Testament, which is.

We don't ignore imperatives related to unfamiliar cultural norms, but we use deduction to compare them to issues we have in a more modern culture.

And especially, we don't depend upon anyone else's interpretation of Scripture. We depend upon our personal prayer life, devotional disciplines, and willing spirit to comprehend the scriptures.

For Christians that may be so. Jews would argue that Jesus was not a true prophet and that God specifically warned against belief in "prophets or dreamer of dreams" that arise and do wonders in the name of God. That these would be false and only testers of your faith (Deuteronomy 13: 2-4). Indeed, Jewish teaching would hold that the New Testament is the teaching of a false prophet. Perhaps we should stop threadjacking and open another thread to discuss this any further.