blid02 - The farmers shuttle

[Formula51]

Damned, I was too late. Will be subscribing though.

Let me take this opportunity, however, to advertise my thread in GD:

City States

 

[blid]

Our ancestors want to contradict me. "We are fishermen" they say, "stop your crazy talk, we ain't farmers. Look at those sea creatures mother earth has granted us. Nets, that's what we want." And that's what they had

Our envoys, wandering around got measly tributes. The grandeur of our civilization has not reached those lands yet

But then, some were already bowing to us

Our eastern neighbours are peaceful ones, are we ?

The explorers reported later that they found a strange rock.

They are already dreaming about great architectural prowesses. There are also rumours in the city about strange beliefs practiced far away. Our pearl collar nieghbour swears he has nothing to do with it.

And then it came, the promised sign. The explorers, looking for shelter in one of the scattered villages, had a vision during their sleep. A vision of fields, plenty of them. As far as you can see, there were only fields. And then the wisemen knew, it was our fate to be farmers

Our mighty explorers managed to get first to a small village near India. They got full detail on their capital surroundings

And they met a new friend, rumours say he spends an hour each day working his beard. I told him I like his mustache and he complimented mine

After getting him drunk, Asoka finally admitted that he was a spiritual guy

But he didn't say where Cyrus was living though I suspect he knows

We have some unrest in the empire and people are afraid as a new ruler has been chosen and he has promised them a new life. A life of hardship and pain.




Our city is now size 3. The fish is hooked and a warrior is garrisoned in the capital. I set research on AH and ordered a workboat. There's no copper to be seen so I think we need to know where the horses are. After the euphoria of the start, the surroundings are less appealing. I spotted a city east that can grab rice and marble and steal the bananas from the capital. Maybe we can settle there if we want to try the oracle. Getting COL and confucianism would help us. We need some shrines here to get the cash. No gems, gold or silver to be seen. Our neighbour Asoka has kindly researched hinduism for us.

I played until bronze working which was exactly 30 turns. Kanga, you can play 20 then we'll be up to 15 turns rounds

Save


ROSTER :

• blid - Just played
• Kanga_DU - UP
• Bede
• Sooooo
• GreyFox
• Jet

P.S : firefox crashed on me after I finished the report. Their session restore functionalty is just awesome. I got back my post . No need to say I would be crying otherwise

 

[Kanga_DU]

Thats a got it.

 

[sooooo]

Wow Asoka's capital is ridiculous! With no stone, I guess the pyramids would stunt our expansion too much. Oracle is OK, but it does produce those annoying prophets. Could be decent though if we build it in our second city and the great library in our capital. That we we could fix it to only get 1 prophet (for shrine?) and then loadsa scientists in capital.

 

[Jet]

The Oracle/MC/Forge/Engineer/Pyramids gambit, or the Parthenon, would be strong ways to use early Marble in our game.

Getting the Marble for an early wonder would be an investment. We'd have to settle it early because it would take forever just to build the Monument. The city wouldn't yield much immediately beyond the Marble and some fogbusting. But circumstances permitting I hope we can do it.

A complementary early goal could be to get a Level 4 unit. Then we could both build an early wonder and use Heroic Epic to efficiently muster a Catapult-era army. Asoka's capital is ridiculous, but in a good way. Ka-ching! We'll see.

We have a ton of grassland hills. I like it. For example... a city SSSW of Moscow with a Lighthouse could work 6 grass mines stagnant at size 7 without even stealing any tiles from Moscow. With a Forge and Heroic Epic that'd be 19*2.25 = 42.75 Hammers, or one Catapult per turn if we were at Normal speed.

 

[Kanga_DU]

A quick set of turns, starting with pressing enter.

Once out of anarchy in shiny new slavery, I decide I'll whip out the workboat in short order. Which I do in an turns time. Meanwhile the scout takes a turn to the east and moseys off, shortly coming across :



Bit of a zag to the nor'east and we meet neighbour no:3.



Shortly thereafter I discover that the scout really was a tasty snack for lions.

Well we got lucky with Animal Husbandry, we got ponies! I start with Mysticism (border popping in mind for new cities). The worker that I started after the warrior is built shortly, start on one more warrior. We'll need a settler RSN though. There's a warrior fog busting sou'east of Moscow, near the proposed city.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/80073/The_farmers_BC-2500.CivWarlordsSave

Spoiler :

Logging by Ruff's Cobbled Mod Pack v2.0 (Warlords v2.08) - New Log Entries
Turn 29/660 (3130 BC) [13-Jan-2007 12:11:20]

IBT:

Turn 30/660 (3100 BC) [13-Jan-2007 12:11:45]

IBT:

Turn 31/660 (3070 BC) [13-Jan-2007 12:12:35]
Moscow finishes: Work Boat

IBT:

Turn 32/660 (3040 BC) [13-Jan-2007 12:12:57]
Moscow begins: Warrior (22 turns)

IBT:

Turn 33/660 (3010 BC) [13-Jan-2007 12:13:23]
Moscow grows: 3

IBT:

Turn 34/660 (2980 BC) [13-Jan-2007 12:13:37]

IBT:

Turn 35/660 (2950 BC) [13-Jan-2007 12:13:58]

IBT:

Turn 36/660 (2920 BC) [13-Jan-2007 12:14:16]

IBT:

Turn 37/660 (2890 BC) [13-Jan-2007 12:14:55]

IBT:

Turn 38/660 (2860 BC) [13-Jan-2007 12:15:04]
Contact made: Carthaginian Empire

IBT:

Turn 39/660 (2830 BC) [13-Jan-2007 12:15:36]
Moscow grows: 4
Moscow finishes: Warrior

IBT:

Turn 40/660 (2800 BC) [13-Jan-2007 12:20:41]
Moscow begins: Worker (8 turns)

IBT:
While defending in the wild, Scout loses to: Barbarian Lion (0.80/2) (Prob Victory: 67.8&#37

Turn 41/660 (2770 BC) [13-Jan-2007 12:24:00]
Tech learned: Animal Husbandry

IBT:

Turn 42/660 (2740 BC) [13-Jan-2007 12:27:17]
Research begun: Mysticism (9 Turns)

IBT:

Turn 43/660 (2710 BC) [13-Jan-2007 12:29:50]

IBT:
While defending in the wild near Moscow, Warrior defeats (1.44/2): Barbarian Panther (Prob Victory: 99.0%)

Turn 44/660 (2680 BC) [13-Jan-2007 12:32:10]

IBT:

Turn 45/660 (2650 BC) [13-Jan-2007 12:32:48]

IBT:

Turn 46/660 (2620 BC) [13-Jan-2007 12:33:07]

IBT:
Civics Change: Hannibal(Carthage) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 47/660 (2590 BC) [13-Jan-2007 12:33:34]
Moscow finishes: Worker

IBT:
Judaism founded in a distant land

Turn 48/660 (2560 BC) [13-Jan-2007 12:34:17]
Moscow begins: Warrior (5 turns)

IBT:
Civics Change: Asoka(India) from 'Paganism' to 'Organized Religion'

Turn 49/660 (2530 BC) [13-Jan-2007 12:35:27]

IBT:
While defending in the wild near Moscow, Warrior defeats (2.00/2): Barbarian Lion (Prob Victory: 99.4%)

Turn 50/660 (2500 BC) [13-Jan-2007 12:35:47]

 

[Bede]

Got it for tonight. <goes looking for ho(e)>

 

[blid]

With sooooo and Jet posts in mind, I think that we need to research IW asap. Maybe wheel->IW. Oracle in second city need both marble and some production and we need to clear the jungle on both rice and a couple hills.
The engineer gambit seems like a good idea to me. If we miss the pyramids, we can still use the engineer to build the great lighthouse or the great library. Both of them would be useful in this game

 

[Bede]

What about settling right on the marble? Then research wheel, connect it up and build the Oracle in the capitol?

 

[blid]

What about settling right on the marble? Then research wheel, connect it up and build the Oracle in the capitol?

If we settle on the marble, the city would be short on food for a while. That would be quite unsettling for "the farmers". I prefer a city with resources or adjacent to a river

Getting oracle in the capital, like sooooo pointed out, would give us prophet points and pollute GP pool. Of course, we can use them for shrines so I am not sure about that part

EDIT : about the oracle/MC/forge/engineering/pyramids gambit, how to ensure you get the engineer before the prophet ? Whip/lumber the forge in the capital right away after discovering metal casting and hire the engineer ? If the first great person is at 150 points, then you need 150/6 = 25 turns to get the engineer. The oracle generates a prophet after 150/4 = 38 turns. So the engineer must be hired at least 12 turns after finishing the oracle

 

[Bede]

Anybody want to put up a dot map or a sign showing city #2 location (marble grabber) At work right now so I can't open the game for a better look or even get a decent look at the picture.

 

[Jet]

@Bede,

A is a spot that blid marked for grabbing Marble. I think it's a good spot.
B is the six-hills spot I talked about.
C and D I added just for fun - debatable, as are A and B.
C we'd have to race with Asoka to get to, and even if we got it we'd probably end up fighting an Indian city for the Rice. But it would still get the Cow and it would clear an excellent path to Delhi.
D looks good to me, but we can't see it all, and we don't know where Iron is.

@blid,

About the possibility of Oracle/MC/Pyramids, yes. You have to get the Oracle built early enough (anyone have an idea when that is for Monarch/Epic?) and then you have to get the Forge built quickly, exactly as you said. And if you want to be certain of getting the Engineer you have to build the Forge in a different city from the Oracle. It requires planning and micromanagement. I don't think I've ever tried it.

If we did it, here are my thoughts.

If possible I'd prefer to settle both Marble and another city (say, B or D) and build the Oracle there. Otherwise we'd have to research IW and develop Marble City enough that it can build the Oracle itself (113 Hammers with Marble.) Then build the Forge and Pyramids in Moscow.

The forge is 180 hammers. We could pre-chop Moscow's forests or pre-build Mines over them. Pre-Mathematics we get 30 hammers per forest inside the fat cross.

Moscow, at its happy cap of 5, can work Cow, Horse, and 3 hills. (I don't know if replacing one hill with fish for whipping is better, but assuming 3 hills...) With no mines, Moscow's hammers are 1(city) + 3(horse) + 2(cow) + 6(grass forest hills) = 12. Then each forest that's replaced with a mine gives +2 hammers. Suppose mines were fully pre-built on Moscow's 3 grass hills, although that feels overly optimistic to me. Suppose we haven't yet built roads on those tiles. Then the Forge build could go something like this.
Turn 1: 12 hammers, worker finishes mine #1.
Turn 2: 14 hammers + 30 for chop, worker moves
Turn 3: 14 hammers, worker finishes mine #2.
Turn 4: 16 hammers + 30 for chop, worker moves.
Turn 5: 16 hammers, worker finishes mine #3.
Turn 6: 18 Hammers + 30 for chop.
That brings the hammers to exactly 180.

Or, since Moscow can pull 18 hammers without chops, if its mines were all fully built ahead of time, Moscow could finish the forge in 10 turns minus a couple turns for a concluding whip.

@by the way

I'm pretty sure that a partially built improvement prevents the growth of jungle. Therefore we got there in time, could build one turn's worth of a workshop (or of the forbidden imrovement) on top of the bananas, protecting them from the jungle and enriching Marble City (if it was built where blid marked.)

 

[Bede]

Thanks, Jet, the pictures help.

Looks like start a settler once the worker is done, start research on the Wheel, maybe get the Marblehead built, and start a monument, then another settler, another worker for City B

 

[sooooo]

I looked at the save and I don't think we should build any of the ancient wonders except great library. Marble won't be connected quick enough to matter for the oracle, and without being industrious or having stone the pyramids are out. Think marble city should be 2N of the sign, and our first city should go 2S of the rice. Agree with wheel and IW as our next tech. The marble city has to be founded later because it has so much jungle - so I think it can be our bananas city. That frees the rice up. THe other two of jet's dots, C and D, are too far away from the capital for a first city.

 

[Bede]

Learned Mysticism and The Wheel. Got started on Iron Working now due in twenty.

Trained a warrior and a settler, sent the warrior south to watch over the rice town spot and sent the warrior on the hill further south to keep barbarian watch.

And found one

After some dancing on the hills and jungles the barbarian lost his battle against the Woodsman 1 warrior.

Not long aftwards another appeared but Cy's warrior dealt with him

while a third one appeared in between the woodsman and the rice city site

And now a barbarian archer is inbound from the east

The worker training at Moscow was changed to a warrior due in 4 with growth in 3.

The archer will hit the city gates in three, so on that turn whip the warrior for an extra defender

ROSTER :

* blid
* Kanga_DU
* Bede
* Sooooo - UP
* GreyFox - on deck
* Jet

 

[sooooo]

Got it but will wait a while until we have team concensus about where to settle and what (if any) wonders we will build.

 

[Jet]

On inspection I agree we can't get Marble early enough to make a difference for the Oracle. We could still get the Oracle by 1150 and the Pyramids by 550, if they weren't built elsewhere, by settling SSSW of Moscow now. St Petersburg would need the cows, 4 chops, and 2 mines, so around 2 workers. I don't mind the cost and risk, myself. Details:

Spoiler :

turn 65 2050 BC now
turn 69 ____ BC St Pete: settle SSSW of Moscow
turn 69 ____ BC St Pete: size 1 - food 00/33 - city+cow=+4F,3H - start Monument
turn 75 1750 BC finish Meditation
turn 78 ____ BC St Pete: size 2 - food 00/36 - city+cow+gff=+4F,4H - Monument 27/45
turn 83 ____ BC St Pete: size 2 - food 20/36 - city+cow+gff=+4F,4H - Monument 47/45 - start Work Boat
turn 84 ____ BC finish Priesthood
turn 84 ____ BC St Pete: size 2 - food 24/36 - city+cow+gm=+3F,6H - WB 06/45 - start Oracle and switch gff to gm
turn 88 ____ BC St Pete: size 3 - food 00/39 - city+cow+gm+gm=+2F,9H - Oracle 144/225 (counting 120 from 4 chops now) - WB 06/45
turn 94 ____ BC finish Pottery
turn 95 1150 BC St Pete: size 3 - food 14/39 - city+cow+gm+gm=+2F,9H - Oracle 207/225 - WB 06/45 - whip Oracle for 1 pop = 22H
turn 98 ____ BC St Pete border expansion from Monument
turn 105 1025 BC (or a little sooner) forge in Moscow
turn 130 0550 BC (or a little sooner) engineer in Moscow

size 2 - 33F
size 3 - 36F
size 4 - 39F
size 5 - 42F

3 turns to road
5 turns to chop (30H inside borders, 16H just outside)
6 turns to mine

calendar:
30 for 100
15 for 140
6 for 70
3 for 70
2 for 40
1 for 240

dates:
turn 65 2050 BC now
turn 70 1900 BC
turn 75 1750 BC
turn 80 1600 BC
turn 85 1450 BC Priesthood
turn 90 1300 BC
turn 95 1150 BC Oracle
turn 100 1000 BC
turn 105 0925 BC Forge
turn 110 0850 BC
turn 115 0775 BC
turn 120 0700 BC
turn 125 0625 BC
turn 130 0550 BC Pyramids

 

[GreyFox]

So the plan was to build the Oracle to claim Metal Casting, and start a forge somewhere to get an engineer, and use the engineer to rush build the Pyramids?

Sounds like a pretty risky gambit ... but one well worth it if successful. If the marble would came on line too late for the Oracle, then it might be better to build our 2nd city somewhere it can build the forge fast enough.

If we are going for this gambit, we may not need the marble ... not even for Great Library ... forge combined with Pyramids will lend us a second engineer for that purpose ... one caveat: provided there is no intervening prophet from the city with the Oracle.

Hmmm .. maybe we do need the marble ... urgh ... I am confused ... head hurts ...

 

[sooooo]

Excellent analysis Jet, but to be honest 1150 and 550 are really pushing it to get Oracle and Pyramids on monarch. That includes a risk of not getting the pyramids due to the chance of a great prophet. The safe option, and my vote for the best option, is to just build settlers and workers to expand quickly towards asoka.

 

[Jet]

Thanks, sooooo. In what I suggested there was no chance of a prophet because we'd build the Oracle in St Pete and the Forge in Moscow. I agree that those dates aren't safe (which I don't mind, personally) and that we want to expand toward India.