blid02 - The farmers shuttle

[blid]

Anyone noticed that the oracle was built in 1000 BC ?
In my turnset, the great wall was built in some far land

In the capital, I finished both the barracks and the chariot. I whipped a worker after that to chop the library and Moscow is no hiring two scientists and is stagnant. Remember to let it grow once the whipping penalty fades away.

Hannibal has fur surplus but we have nothing to trade for it save horses. I'd rather not give him that. We can trade for furs once we connect the wheat at Rostov though (and connect the city itself). The worker there finished a mine and a cow pasture, so he can do some roading. In Rostov, we don't have river tiles so I started a barracks there. This city is better suited for military at the moment.

StPet and Novgorod are building libraries. Maybe we can whip them if needed (if they are past the double whip, I won't do it though). We need to hire more scientists to make for the lack of cottages.

I took a look at Carthage. It is insane like the other capitals.

And Asoka stole the marble site from us, settling a rather crappy site. I think we should raze it.

But look at the bright side, we don't need masonry anymore to get the marble
Now I think we need to make a plan depending on our objectives. Do we need the great library ? If so, then we probably need that marble site. For that, we need both a settler and army of swords/axes to raze the indian city at the marble site and maybe take a couple other cities. Asoka has been spamming settlers and has already 6 cities. As for his capital, we can just pillage it to cripple him and get back to take it once we have cats.

Before we get both an army and a settler, we should not be far from literature, so we may consider settling with the marble in the first ring (1S seems a good place for me). Waiting for the monument to be built and the 15 turns of the border expansion would take too long

Any thoughts about that ? We can ignore GL but I do like that wonder. Especially with our variant, it would be very useful. We can also try to build it without marble if we want to play peaceful for the moment

The capital is working on a sword, since iron is connected now. A couple workers are farming jungle rice. We need to grow our cities. IMO, we should convert to hinduism once our cities are at their health cap. At least while Hannibal is atheist or converts to hinduism

save

ROSTER :

* blid : just played
* Kanga_DU : UP
* Bede : on deck
* Sooooo
* GreyFox
* Jet

 

[sooooo]

Great library is too good to ignore for the +6 great scientist points. Even without marble, it shouldn't take long if we chop some of those forests at Moscow.

 

[Kanga_DU]

Thats a got it. Probably play tomorrow.

 

[Kanga_DU]

Ok then, steady as she goes mate. Have a quick look around and hope to refamiliarise myself... Not much to see, just try to remember to whip the right cities as the whipping penalties disappear.

To that end in 610BC Novograd feels the lash (for a couple of pop) to finish a library. (We'll be lucky to finish Alphabet by the end of my turns currently).


In 550BC we open borders with Persia. Currently Hannibal and Cyrus like each other. Hannibal in cautious to Asoka. I need did ask Asoka what he though, probably because we don't care. Whip another library @ St.P's for 2 pop.


The turn after I start workers @ Moscow and Rostov. And the following turn whip both.

Moscow, goes back to swords then. Library for Rostov, its not hooked up to our resources yet. Also in 505BC, Confucianism is FIDL. We have a peek at Persepolis as well. (I've got Chariots scouting about).


Barbs are annoying Persia for now.


In 475BC, Hannibal converts. To Judaism. We get our first (of hopefully many) great scientist. Lightbulb is Mathematics. I'm leaving the call on this to the next person, but the academy wont do us a lot of good now, nor will settling without representation in my opinion.

445BC, Cyrus has a stack heading here:


Kong Mio and Parthenon BIDL in the meantimes.

415BC some trade offers:




No to Asoka, yes please to Hannibal.

And here you go:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/80073/The_Farmers_BC-0400.CivWarlordsSave

Spoiler :

Logging by Ruff's Cobbled Mod Pack v2.0 (Warlords v2.08) - New Log Entries
Turn 124/660 (640 BC) [20-Jan-2007 13:58:15]
Rostov grows: 3

IBT:

Turn 125/660 (625 BC) [20-Jan-2007 14:47:41]
Novgorod grows: 4

IBT:

Turn 126/660 (610 BC) [20-Jan-2007 15:09:03]
Novgorod finishes: Library

IBT:

Turn 127/660 (595 BC) [20-Jan-2007 15:12:05]
Novgorod begins: Barracks (75 turns)

IBT:

Turn 128/660 (580 BC) [20-Jan-2007 15:14:09]

IBT:

Turn 129/660 (565 BC) [20-Jan-2007 15:15:18]
St. Petersburg grows: 4
Novgorod grows: 3
Rostov grows: 4

IBT:

Turn 130/660 (550 BC) [20-Jan-2007 15:17:47]
Moscow grows: 5
Moscow finishes: Swordsman
St. Petersburg finishes: Library
Rostov finishes: Barracks

IBT:

Turn 131/660 (535 BC) [20-Jan-2007 15:22:07]
Moscow begins: Worker (6 turns)
St. Petersburg begins: Swordsman (15 turns)
Rostov begins: Worker (5 turns)

IBT:

Turn 132/660 (520 BC) [20-Jan-2007 15:26:08]
Moscow finishes: Worker
Rostov finishes: Worker

IBT:
Confucianism founded in a distant land

Turn 133/660 (505 BC) [20-Jan-2007 15:29:41]
Moscow begins: Swordsman (10 turns)
Rostov begins: Library (34 turns)

IBT:

Turn 134/660 (490 BC) [20-Jan-2007 15:34:21]
Zu Chongzhi (Scientist) (Great Scientist) born in Moscow
Rostov grows: 3

IBT:
State Religion Change: Hannibal(Carthage) from 'no State Religion' to 'Judaism'
Civics Change: Cyrus(Persia) from 'Paganism' to 'Organized Religion'

Turn 135/660 (475 BC) [20-Jan-2007 15:36:33]

IBT:

Turn 136/660 (460 BC) [20-Jan-2007 15:39:59]
St. Petersburg grows: 3
Novgorod finishes: Barracks

IBT:

Turn 137/660 (445 BC) [20-Jan-2007 15:41:42]
Novgorod begins: Swordsman (6 turns)

IBT:

Turn 138/660 (430 BC) [20-Jan-2007 15:43:42]
While attacking in Russian territory at Novgorod, Chariot defeats (3.40/4): Barbarian Axeman (Prob Victory: 95.6%)

IBT:

Turn 139/660 (415 BC) [20-Jan-2007 15:45:18]
Tech learned: Alphabet
Novgorod grows: 4

IBT:

Turn 140/660 (400 BC) [20-Jan-2007 15:48:33]
Research begun: Metal Casting (46 Turns)

Remember we have a GS sitting in Moscow

No research put into Metal Casting yet either. No trades with Persia for Polyethism which we need for Literature. I didn't want to break our Alphabet monopoly just yet either.

 

[blid]

Good job on the leash and I see you got us seom beavers
Rostov didn't need a library IMO, it doesn't have enough food to hire scientists yet and we need military.

Asoka don't have any metal but he has horses. A couple spears would be nice while the capital is peparing a settler for the marble site.

IMO, we give Asoka IW and pottery to get polytheism and sailing. we take masonry from Cyrus and start researching literature.

I don't like burning the sientist on mathematics. We would trade for it sooner or later, and then we can use the scientist to pop compass. And speaking about lightbulbing, I think we should not trade for meditation until we know if we want the low branch or the medium branch of lightbulbing. Like someone already said, getting optics first is huge for tech trading. The medium branch would help us found philo. What pushes me for the first choice is that Asoka has already found 2 religions (I believe he is the founder of judaism, he convrted to OR first IIRC). So we can just steal his holy cities. OTOH, the more religions on the other continent, the better chances of them hating each other

ROSTER :

* blid :
* Kanga_DU : just played
* Bede : UP
* Sooooo : on deck
* GreyFox
* Jet

 

[Jet]

We can't get any techs from Cyrus right now, so he must be almost done with Writing. For IW+Pottery to Asoka we can get Poly+Sailing or Poly+Masonry+Archery. I'd suggest the latter (with or without Archery to taste), lightbulb Math, and trade Math to Cyrus for Sailing. Then research Lit, then Construction. Next scientist Compass. Compass + either Alpha or Literature ought to get us two of Calendar, Currency, and CoL. The Math lightulb would give it trade value and get us catapults faster. I usually dislike the Math lightbulb but the low-commerce jungle start and no cottages makes me think have to be aggressive about staying caught up.

Good idea to discuss lightbulbing paths. I'm inclined to think that blocking Philosophy wouldn't be best, on balance because of its high trade value and maybe for Pacifism. I think delaying Civil Service to enable an Optics lightbulb might be something to consider.

More suggestions:
- OB with India and map it out with our spare chariot(s). Give Sentry to the chariot near Novgorod.
- cow+wheat+plainsmine+2scientists would be a good configuration for Rostov.
- settle SSW of the marble and use St Pete's tiles for the monument.
- when ready, attack India with the main goals of razing marble city and getting a unit to level 4

 

[blid]

Both Hannibal and Asoka know mathematics. I don't think it has trade value. We don't need archery so why bother with it ?

As for the philo, I agree it has good trade value, but so does machinery. The difference of beakers is 200, IIRC. So I am not sure which way we should go. I just proposed that we postpone meditation trading until we take a decision.
Anyway, my real concern is another continent sharing a single religion. This is the worst scenario when you are playing continent maps. And with our variant, we would have big trouble catching up in techs with them trading like hell

- settle SSW of the marble and use St Pete's tiles for the monument.
- when ready, attack India with the main goals of razing marble city and getting a unit to level 4

If we settle there, connecting the marble would be too late to matter, so why bother attack India at all ? If we hire two scientists and trade for polytheism, then lit is 16 turns away. Founding 1S1SW means we don't get the marble before at least 30 turns.

 

[Kanga_DU]

Rostov didn't need a library IMO, it doesn't have enough food to hire scientists yet and we need military.

I agree, however at that point it wasn't hooked up to the key resources, so it was a library or a warrior.

 

[Jet]

Math can be traded for Sailing and possibly Priesthood or Mono if Cyrus has them. I wouldn't mind trading for a couple of the cheap techs, and if we had Archery I might use it, but I agree that Archery has less utility now than say Priesthood.

We wouldn't finish the Great Library (525H) in 15 turns , so Marble in 30 would affect it as well as the national wonders, saving 600-700H across all three. If we didn't have marble I'd probably still want to build the NE promptly. I think a level 4 unit would help a lot and a preliminary war would probably hurt India more than us.

 

[Bede]

Got it for tomorrow. Need to bone up on light bulbs and such.

 

[sooooo]

In my opinion, using the GS to lightbulb mathematics is a waste when it has no trade value. In a few turns time, Asoka will surely give it to us for Iron Working. I wouldn't give away iron working to Asoka before he will trade Mathematics.

I would hold our scientist now and make a run for literature.

TBH we need to be together with early war or no early war. Right now we are working a lot of mines and running only 1 scientist - this seems to signal early war. It may well be the best option but we need to all have the same strategy.

 

[blid]

Bede : you got a 2 vs 2 on lightbulbing maths here, so you ought to be the tie breaker unless foxy chimes in

If we don't trade with Asoka then we can't have poly and thus can't research literature. So my thinking is that we trade for the techs useful now. That is sailing and poly. We don't need masonry and mathematics until we want to research constrcution. The same with priesthood and code of laws. Once we have a head start on literature, we can break up our alphabet monopoly, to get the techs we need

I am for a war, the sooner the better. I prefer having the marble in the first ring to start using it right away, but that's just me. But I won't start a war just to raze a city. If we attack, we need to take a couple cities. And remember to bring some spears along the war campaign

 

[Jet]

For those who don't prefer Math (isn't it 2 vs 1 now?), how about an Academy? That'd be my second choice. Sounded like Kanga_DU was neutral on Math and negatory on the Academy.

I think we want catapults as soon as we want Delhi, which I think is as soon as possible. Or as soon as he builds the shrine, but probably as soon as possible.

 

[Bede]

As always it is all about the math

On the face of it an Academy does not make much sense - little or no commerce to multiply.

Settling him may have some benefit, even without representation, as it gives us a second scientist while we use the citizens to train us an army and provides points against the next scientist.

Using him for mathematics seems to be the weakest move as it is already known by two nations so lacks trade value.

Guess I'll have to open the save and do the math

 

[sooooo]

There is no rush to use the scientist for anything. It's not like we will run out of things to lightbulb. Philosophy or machinery are good targets, with the former probably being better to get us a religion and pacifism.

 

[Kanga_DU]

I suppose I'd favour sooooo's position here. Better lightbulbs nearby.

 

[Bede]

Made a deal with Asoka - Mathematics was not on the table and stayed that way

Then he made what I felt was an unreasonable demand

Opened the borders and took a tour of his cities

Calcutta won't be hard to crack, the others well nigh impossible without siege engines.

Kept building the army and researching Literature. The Alphabet monopoly still holds, though we may have to break it for Mathematics (trade not made)

Literature arrives in the next couple of turns and we can start the Library, and the Open Borders agreement with Asoka can be canceled at any time. We still need a settler for the marble site. We don't need Masonry to use the marble and Asoka has kindly enough built us a quarry.

There are two groups of troops on Asoka's borders

The mixed stack at Novgorod is for pillaging into Asoka's core

A trireme was built to protect the clam dredgers

Here is what is making me nervous about the Great Library

Lots of wonders, some needing marble, have already been built on another continent, and a Confucian shrine has been built. Somebody out there must be on the Alphabet track. And I noted that Asoka has no shrines built.

Interesting times indeed, and I keep wondering where the money will come from. The Great Scientist sleeps still in Moscow and Rostov is providing the bulk of the research effort with two scientists.

 

[sooooo]

I think both of those cities may be takeable pre-construction actually, if we are prepared to take heavy losses. Asoka is notorious for leaving his cities poorly defended. Lots of troops and heavy losses may be preferable to researching construction when we have much better things to research. That way we could go for a useful economic/lightbulb-enabling tech next.

 

[blid]

I see you set us well for starting this war Bede Good call on the trireme.

I also think that those cities are affordable if we put enough units. The good thing is that they are on flat land.

Now it's sooooo's job to resolve that difficult equation : we need a settler for the marble site (my preference is for the spot 1S of marble), we need more swords if we want to take Delhi and we need to build the great library. I guess we'll be running on 0% research after taking some indian cities, so we need to rely on lightbulbing and tech trades.

I was hoping Asoka would build a shrine for us but it seems he's been more concerned about spamming settlers. I think we should break alphabet monopoly to get maths and ligthbulb compass. Alphabet can get us three cheap techs from Cyrus but we may be able to get just priesthood and war with Asoka. I won't spit on an ally to keep Asoka busy on the eastern front. Right now, he is saying he don't like us enough so we should convert to hinduism, now that Hannibal is hindu too.

Roster :

* blid
* Kanga_DU
* Bede : just played
* Sooooo : UP
* GreyFox : on deck
* Jet

 

[Bede]

As I look at the war with Asoka I think settling Calcutta's hash first to get a feel for what we will need for troops to take on 50 and 60% culture towns, then drop into his core and play cottage wrecker until he cries "uncle", then come back for more when we have more muscle.

My experience with swords against archers says we are going to take 50 to 60% losses just wiping off three archers in a 20% town. And a 50% town will be even higher for that same three archers.