BNW Deity Tier List

[adwcta]

My 2 cents:

America and Indonesia didn't get much better.

Germany has gotten significantly better, and much more late game focused (yeah, there's a bias toward early game benefits, but it's misplaced imo, and Germany's now going to have the best late game benefit in the game, with a late-game UU and a late-game UB combo, and UA that stays relevant in late-game). It can also wreck havoc in the very early game easier with the changes to warmonger penalties, so it has an easy way out of a bad start. Need more testing of the warmonger changes, but it's promising. Compare to Russia.

Japan has gotten slightly better. +1 culture is nothing to sneeze at, as it builds up the entire game (see: Morocco), and the AI isn't a human player, so when going military (as Japan will continue to do) it'll be easier to deal with ideological unhappiness. Finally a coastal start bias, which helps Japan even without the fishing boats, because it's UA shines in naval battles. Samurai bonus is very situational. Zero bonus is too small to matter. I don't think they'll ultimately move up though, but there's a chance. It looks like tourism-domination mix, which is already easier to pull off than straight domination, has received an even larger boost in this patch, so who knows. Japan will be the only civ with a +tourism and +military bonus.

Generally, I think situational warmongers (China, Assyria), tourism-based (France, Brazil, Poly) and mid-game gold civs (Portugal) are getting a boost, so they might also get moved up. On the other hand, diplo victories are nerfed (as they should be), so I'm looking at you Greece.

 

[Buccaneer]

On paper (with the patch), I would not move Japan up a tier. They can be one of the few early aggressive civs but their new stuff comes too late.

 

[Arachnofiend]

The new Samurai bonus is actually really nice. Was playing Small Continents and got a really silly amount of water resources; I lacked the production to prioritize boats so I still had a bunch of fish I still needed to get up and running by the time I was in the Renaissance, so I took a quick detour towards Longswords and was able to get ~5 boats up with just the one Samurai I built (only got two iron total, game was pretty painful in terms of luxes and strategics). Huge savings of gold/hammers.

I doubt it's enough to move them up a tier but it's genuinely useful on anything other than Pangaea.

 

[Cromagnus]

+1 to the comments saying Shoshone should be in its own tier on top of everything else. Assuming *standard settings*, ie Ancient Ruins aren't turned off, short of EXTREMELY bad luck, the Shoshone get insanely good starts. And good starts = victory on Deity. Poland is awesome too... but the Shoshone are pure ownage.

EDIT: Also, the early border expansion is extremely useful on Deity. You can cut the AI off, grab 4th tier resources early, snag NW, grab luxes on the other side of mountain ranges... So awesome.

 

[Resipsa]

+1 to the comments saying Shoshone should be in its own tier on top of everything else. Assuming *standard settings*, ie Ancient Ruins aren't turned off, short of EXTREMELY bad luck, the Shoshone get insanely good starts. And good starts = victory on Deity. Poland is awesome too... but the Shoshone are pure ownage.

EDIT: Also, the early border expansion is extremely useful on Deity. You can cut the AI off, grab 4th tier resources early, snag NW, grab luxes on the other side of mountain ranges... So awesome.

Frankly early border expansion is why the Shoshone are excellent on Diety. American ruin finding is almost on par with the Shosone and they are an average Civ.

3 American Scouts (built in the same time period it takes to build 2 Pathfinders) with +1 Sight are going to hit 33%-40% more ruins which even though you can't pick them are going to give you something.

 

[Cromagnus]

Frankly early border expansion is why the Shoshone are excellent on Diety. American ruin finding is almost on par with the Shosone and they are an average Civ.

3 American Scouts (built in the same time period it takes to build 2 Pathfinders) with +1 Sight are going to hit 33%-40% more ruins which even though you can't pick them are going to give you something.

Being able to pick is the reason the Shoshone are awesome, not just great. Two growth ruins by turn 20, culture ruin, faith ruin... composite bow upgrade, free tech if you find a 5th and 6th ruin, another growth ruin if you find a 7th. Size 5 capital by turn 20, you can skip monument, plus you can skip shrine and still have a pantheon...

The fast start is a result of picking ruins, and that, not the border expansion is the biggest advantage to the Shoshone. Fast start = everything. Don't get me wrong, the border expansion is awesome. But, the Shoshone can make a liberty capital look like a Tradition capital. They can make a Tradition start, well, ridiculous.

 

[Resipsa]

Respectfully I disagree, You and Tich overvalue early growth ruins in my estimation. America can pick up a significant number if ruins that the Shoshone can't. What America cant do is push out borders to give your satellites plenty of tiles to work.

 

[Deau]

Being able to pick is the reason the Shoshone are awesome, not just great. Two growth ruins by turn 20, culture ruin, faith ruin... composite bow upgrade, free tech if you find a 5th and 6th ruin, another growth ruin if you find a 7th. Size 5 capital by turn 20, you can skip monument, plus you can skip shrine and still have a pantheon...

The fast start is a result of picking ruins, and that, not the border expansion is the biggest advantage to the Shoshone. Fast start = everything. Don't get me wrong, the border expansion is awesome. But, the Shoshone can make a liberty capital look like a Tradition capital. They can make a Tradition start, well, ridiculous.

It's actually a combination of both. The extra tiles allow you to always work the best tiles from the get go. 3f tile in 3rd ring of best location? Np, you will still grow to pop 2 in 5 turns instead of 8. Mining lux in 2nd ring? Np, you will still get 2h2g each time you grow it's available right away. The net gold saving from not having to purchase tiles for each new city typically leads to an extra worker and/or settler that you can rush-buy in the first 80 turns.

Still, I agree that picking hut significantly inflates the value. In particular guaranteed pantheon on T20 and double if not triple growth ruins. I often get T50-T100 huts on island/archipelago maps that can go straight to cap with good delayed expansion.

A synergy between 2 strong early game unique traits is what makes Shoshone so powerful.

 

[Deau]

Respectfully I disagree, You and Tich overvalue early growth ruins in my estimation. America can pick up a significant number if ruins that the Shoshone can't. What America cant do is push out borders to give your satellites plenty of tiles to work.

Out of the 33% more ruins you give to America, there's probably 20% of those worth that wind up as maps and barbs finding which are utterly useless. Timeliness for 20 culture, pop growth and free pantheon easily make Shoshone better hut finders than any new bonus that could raise the number of huts.

There's also a decent value in promoted CBs. You can often get a $$ peace deal from worker stealing AI and it makes the human competitive for early CS barb quests.

 

[Cromagnus]

Respectfully I disagree, You and Tich overvalue early growth ruins in my estimation. America can pick up a significant number if ruins that the Shoshone can't. What America cant do is push out borders to give your satellites plenty of tiles to work.

Settlers cost 89 hammers. Your capital starts at either 4 or 5 hammers depending on whether you parked on a hill. Let's just say 5. Most capitals will hit size 4 at turn 30. The Shoshone capital will hit size 5 at turn 20 or so.

Stagnating to build 3 settlers, you'll get (if you're lucky) 11-12 production with size 4, 13-14 at size 5. 89*3=267. 267/12 = 22 turns. 267/14 = 19 turns. That's 3 settlers by turn 39 instead of turn 52. Or you could wait until size 5 at turn 40 if you're lucky, and get them at turn 59.

I'd say getting your satellite cities out an average of 13 turns earlier is a really big deal, especially on Deity.

Also, you're getting a significant number of extra beakers, gold and production from that early growth.

It may be hard to quantify, but man, it really *feels* substantial when I'm churning out buildings an units early like that.

And heck, the value of a guaranteed (almost) pantheon is awesome on Deity by itself. Let alone a guaranteed culture ruin. And a free tech.

America can have all the maps and locations of barb camps it wants.

But, like Deau says, the real value is in the synergy. This is true. If I had to pick, I'd be hard-pressed. I still think the huts are more valuable, even if the only thing you're working is 2-food tiles, but it's probably close.

 

[Resipsa]

Settlers cost 89 hammers. Your capital starts at either 4 or 5 hammers depending on whether you parked on a hill. Let's just say 5. Most capitals will hit size 4 at turn 30. The Shoshone capital will hit size 5 at turn 20 or so.

Stagnating to build 3 settlers, you'll get (if you're lucky) 11-12 production with size 4, 13-14 at size 5. 89*3=267. 267/12 = 22 turns. 267/14 = 19 turns. That's 3 settlers by turn 39 instead of turn 52. Or you could wait until size 5 at turn 40 if you're lucky, and get them at turn 59.

I'd say getting your satellite cities out an average of 13 turns earlier is a really big deal, especially on Deity.

Also, you're getting a significant number of extra beakers, gold and production from that early growth.

It may be hard to quantify, but man, it really *feels* substantial when I'm churning out buildings an units early like that.

And heck, the value of a guaranteed (almost) pantheon is awesome on Deity by itself. Let alone a guaranteed culture ruin. And a free tech.

America can have all the maps and locations of barb camps it wants.

But, like Deau says, the real value is in the synergy. This is true. If I had to pick, I'd be hard-pressed. I still think the huts are more valuable, even if the only thing you're working is 2-food tiles, but it's probably close.

Fair enough, I respect your opinion but even in Deity games where I've gotten tied up grabbing workers from the and I've only gotten 4 ruins I've still gotten my 3 expos up in choice locations and have plenty of tiles to work.

America and everyone else gets maps and barb locations in a couple of ruins, this is true but with 3 +1 vision scouts plus a +1 vision warrior they really do nab a significant amount of ruins to overcome the choice of the ones you get from 3 Shoshone Pathfinders. I wonder does anyone ever do a 3x pathfinder opening?

 

[Cromagnus]

Fair enough, I respect your opinion but even in Deity games where I've gotten tied up grabbing workers from the and I've only gotten 4 ruins I've still gotten my 3 expos up in choice locations and have plenty of tiles to work.

America and everyone else gets maps and barb locations in a couple of ruins, this is true but with 3 +1 vision scouts plus a +1 vision warrior they really do nab a significant amount of ruins to overcome the choice of the ones you get from 3 Shoshone Pathfinders. I wonder does anyone ever do a 3x pathfinder opening?

I do. My build order is: Pathfinder, Pathfinder. (You start with one)

Or did you mean 4 pathfinder?

Don't get me wrong, the advantage of American scouts is not to be discounted. But the ability to control which ruins you get and when is in my opinion of more value. I love American scouts for Domination though. Give them the +1 vision upgrade and they can sight for artillery from halfway across the map. ;-)

 

[sufficiency]

I just want to say I am happy that people are using the format I used to use, haha.

 

[Matthew.]

Shoshone feels like you start 20-30 turns ahead of where you normally would be.

 

[kb27787]

bottom tier civ on deity pangea (aka Polynesia is anything but bottom tier)

Spoiler :

played this beauty out last night... Pangaea actually gives you more chances than islands to clump out beautiful Moais... if your capitol has the peninsula, combined with hermitage and World Fair, this ends up being just broken cpt pre 200 turn
I did not feel a single point from ideological unhappiness all game

I think people are underestimating how useful instant embarkation is even on Pangaea... it allows you to circumvent blockades and so you do not need to rush-scout far away lands, as borders cannot keep you out. Also gives you much more flexibility for expanding (no need to rush settlers prematurely)

 

[Syntax Error]

Last but not least, as a player that plays mostly peaceful games, I'm really torn for Siam. I tend to consider them as good as 2nd tier civs you've listed but rarely pick them because I don't like their start bias and the need tweak my SP approach for the free Wats.

Yeah, I was wondering about that too. The free Wats would be harder to get since Amphitheaters now only provide 1 culture.

 

[Resipsa]

Or did you mean 4 pathfinder?

Don't get me wrong, the advantage of American scouts is not to be discounted. But the ability to control which ruins you get and when is in my opinion of more value. I love American scouts for Domination though. Give them the +1 vision upgrade and they can sight for artillery from halfway across the map. ;-)

No, I mean building a 4th pathfinder

 

[adwcta]

Moved Germany, added * to Japan as the fall patch has been released. Those were the two most obvious and uncontroversial changes I think.

I'll start pitching some ideas once I play more of the post-patch world and get a feel for the macro changes. Haven't had much time the past month+ to do much of anything, but hopefully that'll change.

 

[Vidszhite]

Updated: October 17, 2013.

Currently considering:

- Austria. Top tier civ? The +GP rate was incredible in BNW for a tall empire, while being able to expand less in the beginning (since you can expand more later) without penalty let me make better cities, have more CS allies, and get national wonders sooner. I only kept them here because Sufficiency had them here, and I don't think they actually got better in BNW or by playing balanced maps instead of Pangaea. They did gain a Hill start bias though, which is a great start bias since their UB can is a windmill replacement that can be built on hills. Also, the chatter about Inca seem to suggest hills start bias also means higher % chance for mountain start. True, or just a rumor?

I don't see any reason to move Austria down if they were good before. They're still good for all the same reasons, you just have to take more care not to eat too many CS if you're gunning for diplo victory.

I have no words on the Inca.

- Assyria. Huns. There seems to be no consensus here. I do think it's helpful to compare them to other warmongering civs. Warmongering in general is much less good in BNW, and in order to successfully engage in it, late game war is best, mid-game war is second, early wars are by far the worst. I haven't played them in BNW, so don't know how the warmongering diplo changes and early gold affect them. I would think it's severe enough to move them down to be "not as good as Mongols". Does fall patch changes to warmonger penalties and AI's willingness to war have a significant effect here?

The earliest you can realistically wage war in BNW on Deity is in the Medieval era. Assyria is therefore in a fantastic position, because their siege tower is good until the Renaissance, and boosts the attack power of any of their other units that are in range, which includes Longswords -- and on Deity, you can get Steel fairly early on in the Medieval era, when most other AIs are still using pikemen, as long as you bolt down the warmonger path after getting your NC up. Since towers count as melee units, they also get the Discipline boost from Honor. Assyria can use their UA to keep on researching Classical/Medieval tech, so they don't fall behind on essentials, while continuing to bolt down the Warmonger path all the way to Fertilizer, which can get the player into the Renaissance at around the same time the AI does it, and first to Industrial by a longshot, netting a second spy, extra production and Cannons from Chemistry, and, well, freaking Fertilizer, which boosts the food output of damn near everything that isn't a Civil Service tile, even plantations and pastures.

Furthermore, Assyria doesn't have to build amphitheaters until much later on, because the royal library has a GW slot, which you want to fill early because it gives units exp. Thanks to their free tech on conquest, they can wage war without falling behind, and without ruining their culture.

Huns, on the other hand, are in a less favorable position. Their free starting tech and hammers from pastures are actually a very significant early game boost, but their UUs aren't going to see action against other civs, especially if the AI is in rough terrain. The lack of a spearman means they NEED Swordsmen to compete in early wars, but swordsmen come into play right when the average AI gets pikemen. If swordsmen were stronger, this wouldn't be an issue, but pikemen are strictly better, so you'll likely be delaying war until longswords (if you dart down the warmonger path), by which time, the horse archer and battering ram will be useless.

However, one very useful tactic I've found with the Huns is building many Battering Rams in cities with Barracks, give them Cover II, then upgrade them to Trebuchets. This will start all your trebuchets off with Cover II, which means cities and xbows will ignore them while they plink away at your longswords (which should also have cover), which is exactly what you want. Still, this effectively makes Horse Archers only good for barb hunting. Huns' UA is still useful in the early game, sure, but their UUs are never going to see direct action on Deity. Huns are definitely below Assyria.

- Japan. Okay, how good are they post-fall patch? Anyone get a good feel for culture/domination mixed strategy? Considering moving them up.

IMO, Japan does deserve to move up a tier. Their old UA still makes Siege units quite potent, and also means that Bombers never lose power as they lose HP, and their new one gives them extra early game culture, as well as late game Tourism. They are effectively the new old France, with other perks. Samurai being able to build fishing boats as a 1 turn worker action is insanely useful if you get into a war, since it saves MANY turns or loads of gold building work boats yourself. I kept a samurai all the way to the endgame because of it. Zeroes not requiring oil means you don't have to choose between defense and offense late-game, you can have as many as your GPT and city limits allow. They are easily balanced-tier material now. IMO, they're probably even better than Germany, as I have yet to win with Germany, but have had much success with Japan.

 

[Vidszhite]

Being able to pick is the reason the Shoshone are awesome, not just great. Two growth ruins by turn 20, culture ruin, faith ruin... composite bow upgrade, free tech if you find a 5th and 6th ruin, another growth ruin if you find a 7th. Size 5 capital by turn 20, you can skip monument, plus you can skip shrine and still have a pantheon...

But Pathfinders cost so much more than scouts that you realistically won't be finding more ruins than average, in fact you'll probably find less. Faith ruin picks don't become available until after turn 20, which is usually when all the ruins have been found on an average map. America can build almost 3 scouts for the same cost of your second pathfinder, and with their extra sight, they can find ruins and CS much faster. With Shoshone, their scouting game is like building a second warrior to use for scouting. For that price, you better be able to pick your reward.

America has a similar ruin game to Shoshone because, while they might not be able to pick the ruin, they find way more of them, resulting in similar rewards to the Shoshone, on top of more gold. I might even argue that America is better than Shoshone once you actually pass the start, because the UUs are both fantastic, but Shoshone's UA is oh so satisfying, and strangely cathartic.

The fast start is a result of picking ruins, and that, not the border expansion is the biggest advantage to the Shoshone. Fast start = everything. Don't get me wrong, the border expansion is awesome. But, the Shoshone can make a liberty capital look like a Tradition capital. They can make a Tradition start, well, ridiculous.

Anyone could make a Tradition start ridiculous. Tradition is the "safe" tree that pretty much all civs do well with, and Shoshone aren't particularly good at doing anything with Tradition that it doesn't do with anyone else. No, what makes the Shoshone great is their ability to make Tradition's border growth redundant, to make their Liberty start look like a Tradition start. Fast expand on ALL the luxes! Shoshone are wasting their potential by taking Tradition.

The border expansion UA is far more useful than anything the pathfinders do. I've built second pathfinders and never even found a ruin with it, so the ability to pick your reward is still highly luck based. They are fantastic Liberty users because their extra land more than makes up for the slower border growth, so you can settle farther from luxes and closer to the food/rivers/mountains, box the AI in to prevent them from claiming your other spots, improve luxes and resources faster with your extra worker, then be ready to defend when the inevitable war comes.

Also, if you're gunning for a faith ruin, why skip the monument? Monuments are very important, give you long-term culture, and if you take Tradition anyway, it gives you an Amphitheater. Better hammer and gold return. Faith ruins are no guarantee, since they only appear after turn 20. You're better off skipping the shrine until you GET a faith ruin, that way you don't waste time chasing a religion that might not happen.