Boomers: The Evil Generation!

[Timsup2nothin]

At no point does scripture advocate socialism.

Better read that again. Or more likely learn what socialism actually is. II Corinthians, chapter eight, starting at verse 13 provides good instruction.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I think it is interesting that our time is highly anomalous in human history for another reason: we subscribe to the religion of "progress", indeed we are so submerged in it that we scarcely imagine that other ideas are even possible. We believe, firmly, that each generation is wiser, better educated, etc. than the previous one (and it would be regarded as borderline insane to question this), yet every generation, everywhere on Earth, up until, say, about 1700 or so in Europe was united in its insistence that true wisdom and greatness belonged to their ancestors.

What a shift that represents! And it took barely 150 years for the cult of progress to take an almost complete hold over the minds of almost all Europeans.

And certainly the shift in thinking was reasonable and justified. Huge progress was made in the living conditions in much of where the western world touched. Ancestor worship may have a place today, but it is less relevant than, say, building on the shoulders of those who came before us. Paradigm shifts happen and are important even if they bring turbulence and surprising change.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Better read that again. Or more likely learn what socialism actually is. II Corinthians, chapter eight, starting at verse 13 provides good instruction.

And 1 Corinthians: 12 speaks of redeeming the devil. Maybe those two books should not have been made part of the Bible.

 

[Lexicus]

Huge progress was made in the living conditions in much of where the western world touched.

Do you choose to ignore the millions of corpses, or are they part of the overall picture here?

 

[Peuri]

Here's a polemic counterpoint to this view: the true pinnacle of history was the complex societies of the New World, annihilated by biological happenstance [...]

Polemical indeed. Nothing screams pinnacle of history more than human sacrifice, slavery and monarchical rule.

 

[Lexicus]

Polemical indeed. Nothing screams pinnacle of history more than human sacrifice, slavery and monarchical rule.

The one-dimensional characterization of the entire Americas in this way is racist and frankly an example of exactly the ideology I am criticizing.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Do you choose to ignore the millions of corpses, or are they part of the overall picture here?

Pretty much. We are a violent species and nature treats us with indifference, but even with relative peace in the world, 53 million or so die every year anyway. Pain is local, death is universal; the best people can do is to reduce what pain we can where we can.

If you want to wax philosophical about the value of life and meaningless death, that would be fun. Start a thread; I'm all in.

 

[Lexicus]

Pretty much.

That was an either-or question. You're saying the deaths are, in fact, just part of the overall picture here?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

That was an either-or question. You're saying the deaths are, in fact, just part of the overall picture here?

I think he is, and I think he's right.

 

[Lexicus]

I think he is, and I think he's right.

What I'm specifically interested in is the relation of these deaths to Progress. Were the deaths necessary for Progress?

 

[inthesomeday]

but even with relative peace in the world, 53 million or so die every year anyway.

Peace! Two contradictory ideas sat right next to each other.

 

[Peuri]

The one-dimensional characterization of the entire Americas in this way is racist and frankly an example of exactly the ideology I am criticizing.

You are jumping into a convenient conlusion. If one blames the west as just a degenerate hellhole because of some features inherent in it, how does it suddenly become racist to point out that a society the same person lionizes also had problematic features? Sure the Americas weren't just a bloodfest dedicated to Huitzilopoctli, but the west also isnt just a colonialist pig-dog.

 

[Birdjaguar]

That was an either-or question. You're saying the deaths are, in fact, just part of the overall picture here?

Yes.

What I'm specifically interested in is the relation of these deaths to Progress. Were the deaths necessary for Progress?

Progress and death are only tangentially connected. First you have to define the scope of progress you are talking about: land lines to iPhones, cheap vaccines, global trade and communication, etc. You also have to set your time horizon: ten years, 50 years, 100 years etc. For example, how much progress was made from 1900 to 1950 and at what cost? Was it worth it? And to whom? Was pain involved? Is the world a better place now than then and can/was that progress be built upon? When you only look at the family level, you will get very different answers.

Then look at the following 50 years and ask the same questions. Cool topic, make a thread.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

You are jumping into a convenient conlusion. If one blames the west as just a degenerate hellhole because of some features inherent in it, how does it suddenly become racist to point out that a society the same person lionizes also had problematic features? Sure the Americas weren't just a bloodfest dedicated to Huitzilopoctli, but the west also isnt just a colonialist pig-dog.

Which part isn't?

 

[inthesomeday]

The world a better place? “The world” has been steadily becoming a worse place since at least 1750 CE but more like ~8000 BCE. The experience of a limited few privileged humans? Sure, improving since the latter date. Very incrementally and more often than not at the expense of the experience of other humans.

 

[civvver]

I just can't take you seriously anymore.

 

[Birdjaguar]

The world a better place? “The world” has been steadily becoming a worse place since at least 1750 CE but more like ~8000 BCE. The experience of a limited few privileged humans? Sure, improving since the latter date. Very incrementally and more often than not at the expense of the experience of other humans.

The world is neither a better or worse place than in previous times. The living space for people and animals changes over time as we do more. Conditions for human life when measured by life expectancy and leisure time activities has certainly improved greatly. What are you using as the measure?

 

[Birdjaguar]

Peace! Two contradictory ideas sat right next to each other.

Yes, the world is pretty much at peace now. Widespread war is probably something you can't imagine.

 

[Peuri]

Which part isn't?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Are you saying that it's racist to point that the pre-Columbian high cultures in America don't sound like the place we should want people to emulate and hold as a "pinnacle of history"? I'm not even saying that those parts that were nasty about those societies have anything to do with their "race". How on earth can that even remotely be considered racist without extreme bad faith? From what I know, the Indus valley culture sounds like an infinately more fitting one to hold the mantle of "pinnacle of history" if you want to be edgy and say that the west and the present is just evil.

 

[Peuri]

The world a better place? “The world” has been steadily becoming a worse place since at least 1750 CE but more like ~8000 BCE. The experience of a limited few privileged humans? Sure, improving since the latter date. Very incrementally and more often than not at the expense of the experience of other humans.

What would constitute a better world in your view?

Edit:
Sorry for the double post, on my phone.