Boosting the Arabs

[bhavv]

Well, granted. Maybe the Arabs just suit my playstyle better (though I find myself going back to the Inca again and again). As long as they're not directly WORSE than another option, it's enough for me. They can't all be the best one. I really can't yet see whether they're undercut by the Dutch, though (having not played as the Dutch yet ). Could be.

I always have wondered why you need horses to make camels though.

Yea they arent really noticably worse in any way at all, and once you get those Bazaars built they are brilliant.

I just see the Civs I named as slightly better, but the Arabs are still good.

The +1 gold per trade route is simply a meaningless amount of extra gold, it doesnt help as much as gold savings from the Inca UA, China and Egypt UBs, nor compare to Korea and Babylon's tech boosts.

As strong as the Bazaar and Camel UU are, the other civs also get strong UUs and UBs too like the floating gardens, paper maker, bowman, chu ko nu, burial tomb etc.

Arabia are definitely good and playable, but I dont see them as top tier compared to the other civs.

 

[Verified_Confection_Being]

Your argument is flawed. The Arabs have not been undercut, certain aspects of their uniqueness have been, this does not suggest they need reworking. If this were to be the answer every time we would end up in some sort of loony civilisation arms race.

The mongols may have a better horse archer, the inca may have a better UA, for what they directly do, but the Arabs still have good uniques, and put together they make a good civilisation that is not simply a weaker version of other civs but a very specialised civ in a completely different area.

They gain a massive boost from expanding hugely, and can defend that large empire with a ranged unit with large movement. The mongols gain a massive boost from attacking (particularly city states) to grow their empire. The Inca gain a boost from expanding particularly around regions other civs normally couldn't and maintaining and unreasonably high population there.

I don't think they need reworking at all, i don't think the arabs have been significantly more disadvantaged by the addition of new civs than the average and in fact they may gain hugely from the new mercantile city states.

 

[elprofesor]

The Dutch get a massive early game advantage, just as the Spanish may do if they are lucky, and Arabs end up being better (since they are strictly better than Dutch from the moment they have a Bazaar in each of their cities).

I agree that their UA could use that small boost from 1 gold to 2 per trade route, though, just as the Ottomans could get a lil' extra something in the UA department, but in both cases their other UUs (in singular for Ottomans, though) make up for it.

I suppose that's the other reason I want the Horse requirement removed. It's a strange requirement to begin with.

I just think to myself that horses are an abstraction of whatever animal lives around there that humans can ride. Thus, when Arabs get horses, I just mentally transform them to camels.
The same reasoning would apply to Naresuan Elephants, if they did need horses.

 

[Buccaneer]

This is what you meant to say you read my post wrong.

I agree this is a very sensible idea.

Thank you Louis XXIV, I was curious about that.

Thank you craig123, I will read this with great interest.

See? I knew you could learn more about how the game fundamentally works! Now expand that into other mechanics of the game and then you would have a better appreciation and understanding of what works well and what can be improved.

Regarding the Dutch and Arabs, I think it's important to make each civ unique and good to play. They have come a long ways since 1.0 but there are still some unbalance (on the whole) between various civs. I love the idea of the UA, UU and UB combination and how they could vary widely (in their strengths) among civs (which was another great improvement on Civ4), but taken as a whole, I think they should be roughly equal given the AI's tendencies. In other words, there should only be a handful of overpowered UU, UA or UB and a handful of average ones and a handful of underpowered ones - but they all add up to the same strength.

 

[bhavv]

They gain a massive boost from expanding hugely

I have to disagree with this, +1 gold per trade route is not a massive boost, its pretty minor really. Bazaar bonuses take quite a while to obtain, researching currency and building Bazaars takes some time to set up in any game, plus you have to gamble on hoping that the AI will remain friendly enough and have enough gold available for trade.

At 8 cities, the Arabs will have +7 gold.
Chinese will have +16 gold, and -16 maintenance
Egypt will have -16 maintenance
Inca will have much more than +16 GPT with how much cheaper their roads are.

Hence the suggestion for an increase to +2 gold per route for the Arabs is just to put them on par with those civs for the amount of gold saved / increased per turn.

 

[Zenstrive]

"Islam is the desert".

No it's not. I am a muslim and comes from tropical jungles surrounded country

Btw:

1. Arabs allow you to be flexible: conquerors, scientists, pacifists, you can do that. Money and luxuries make them able to pull that.
2. Camel Archers are highly powered for its time. It's the rocket artillery of the medieval. I usually keep them around until artillery pop up.

Btw, for the chosen leader, Harun Al-Rasyid, I'd rather the UA is a bonus of culture/science than money, it'll be more history accurate. He was a sponsor of technology literature translation and adaptation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harun_al-Rashid

 

[Louis XXIV]

If you want the UA to match the leader, Napoleon is the worst offender. It should be pretty clear right now, regardless of what the files say, the UA is supposed to reflect the civ not the leader.

 

[Babri]

If you want the UA to match the leader, Napoleon is the worst offender. It should be pretty clear right now, regardless of what the files say, the UA is supposed to reflect the civ not the leader.

It atleast reflects the hate for steam engine by Napoleon.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

"What, sir, would you make a ship sail against the wind and currents by lighting a bonfire under her deck? I will lose my culture bonus!"--Napoleon

 

[Louis XXIV]

In retrospect, that quote would be very appropriate. Too bad it's the Civ4 quote.

I was just referring to the fact that the Ancien Regime was the one killed by the French Revolution, which allowed Napoleon to rise to power. He's the very opposite of the Ancien Regime.

 

[bhavv]

I think everyone has overlooked how weak England is now.

Their uniques are nice, but provide no economic boost of any kind. But in the expansion they will be getting an extra spy, and ships will be able to capture cities.

Id like something like a 15% combat boost to naval units, and / or a navy production bonus added to them to cement England as the definite top naval superpower which they ought to be, and also buff ship of the lines a bit to 20 ranged damage. Not so much an economic boost, but pure naval supremecy.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I think a bonus to GAdmiral generation would be sufficient. It gives them extra naval power and it can be expended to cause a Golden Age which is good for their economy.

 

[bhavv]

Ah I forgot about those, maybe a 100% bonus to Great Admiral spawn rate would be great.

Though running England with a Great Merchant focus and commerce works well, anyone else can also do that so its not very unique.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Ah I forgot about those, maybe a 100% bonus to Great Admiral spawn rate would be great.

Though running England with a Great Merchant focus and commerce works well, anyone else can also do that so its not very unique.

But now that you mention it, just making Commerce better would help the English as well.

 

[dexters]

It's a function of population. The bigger the city is, the more gold you'll get.

However, since roads cost money, the more roads you need, the more gold you won't get. Generally, the city has to be at least the size of the number of roads. For example, if it's three tiles away from the capital (or three tiles away from wherever you're adding it to the chain), you need to be at least size 3.

I like the idea as well. This would be just adding 1 extra line to their UA, given they already have a trade-route UA buff, getting 1 extra gold per route.

Enhancing religion spread would be nice, or perhaps also add the additional bonus of an extra +1 gold if both cities in a route have religion. I'm not sure if we want to explore same religion bonuses, It may open doors to things we don't want to get into, but at minimum if both cities in both ends of a route has religion, the bonus goes up to +2 in addition to sped up spread of religion.

Edit: one more idea, increased range? 15 tile limit instead of 10 ?

 

[Louis XXIV]

I think you quoted the wrong post, but, nevertheless, I agree that an increased range that religion spreads would be an awesome idea and fit history, the name of the unique ability, and how the civ plays.

 

[dexters]

I think you quoted the wrong post, but, nevertheless, I agree that an increased range that religion spreads would be an awesome idea and fit history, the name of the unique ability, and how the civ plays.

Apologies, I had a brain fart.

 

[CYZ]

I think Arabia is pretty good already. But it could certainly use a faith boost, also for historic purposes.

How about: During a golden age the Arabs recieve 1 faith on any tile adjacent to desert and 3 faith on every oasis tile.

It isn't big, but it is nice. They don't need a big boost, they have a few good traits already. They're a jack of all civ and that's good imo.

 

[MadDjinn]

I think you quoted the wrong post, but, nevertheless, I agree that an increased range that religion spreads would be an awesome idea and fit history, the name of the unique ability, and how the civ plays.

I think you guys are mixing up the civ and the religion.

both are in the game, but they aren't married.

 

[Alk3Crimson]

I think you guys are mixing up the civ and the religion.

both are in the game, but they aren't married.

What civ and religion are you referring to? Arabian is not a religion.