BOTM 100 Final Spoiler - Game Submitted or Abandoned

[Pollina]

btw...I got 3700 from a trade mission

Nice! Running SP, I don't think you could get nearly that much gold, as your capital would be much smaller. It's also not very realistic to expect to run many trade missions during the late game. Slower general GP production means that pretty much all your late game Great People are needed for Golden Ages. Never thought about it, but it is possible that the 4 GP Golden Age was a bit of a waste this game...

 

[WastinTime]

Never thought about it, but it is possible that the 4 GP Golden Age was a bit of a waste this game...

I too have considered whether 4 GP used some other way is better than a GA. But it usually comes down to needing the hammers for SS parts. 4 GP aren't good at making hammers directly. So I would suggest that maybe taking a break and having no GA for a while. Then use the 3 GP GAge at the end. Fuel your mid-game with GM trade missions

 

[WastinTime]

At 760 AD, I had 32 cities and you had 22. Expansion takes some time to pay off.

^^ This is the key. Over the past couple years, I've come to believe that it's just about the only thing that matters.
I would argue that SP and Corps are even closer than 2-3 turns apart. And possibly that Corps could still be a couple turns better .

The way to find out would be to play Pollina's game with Corps starting at whatever turn was the point of no return.

Or maybe Jastrow went for corps and will shed some light on this. He had 20+ cities at 1ad.

 

[Pollina]

^^ This is the key. Over the past couple years, I've come to believe that it's just about the only thing that matters.
I would argue that SP and Corps are even closer than 2-3 turns apart. And possibly that Corps could still be a couple turns better .

The way to find out would be to play Pollina's game with Corps starting at whatever turn was the point of no return.

Or maybe Jastrow went for corps and will shed some light on this. He had 20+ cities at 1ad.

REX is even more important in a SP game, as you can't grow a city from pop1 to pop20 in 19 turns. This is another reason why Corps tend to be better on higher difficulties where expansion is often slower.

I definitely should have expanded even faster to get the most out of SP. I had too many underdeveloped cities in the end. If I were to play again, my goal would be 50 cities by 1000 AD. That should be enough for 1 tech/turn, or at least close.

 

[Jastrow]

Late (for this map) spaceship victory in 1580.

I was not at all happy with my post 0AD play. My warring was too sloppy and inefficient, and my corporation spread was too slow (indeed, half way through the spread, I realized that boats are so slow that I probably should have gone state property instead.) In the end, I realized that I was too slow to be competitive, so I did not optimize the finish, and also messed up my GP production/use. Careful play at the end would have made it to ~1560 (4 turns faster), but with all the good starts in the first spoiler, I was expecting a couple of people to be sniffing at a 1500 launch, so I knew 1560 would not win.

 

[Seraiel]

@ Jastrow: 1580 AD is perfect, last time you were 4T faster than me, now I'm 2T faster as you so we're mostly equal and now have a common enemy in Pollina. Let's simply agree on that I am again 2T faster next time and you can be faster as Pollina, like that we're equal and we both win ^^ .

 

[Jastrow]

Unfortunately, it feels FAR from perfect. While I am still not convinced corps were the correct decision, a half-way properly executed corps strategy should easily cut 8 to 10 turns off that data, and come in around 1530. While that would still would have lost to Pollina, I could at least be satisfied with the effort. 1580 just felt soooo slow that I barely decided to finish (I played the last ~20 turns in a single 90 minute session, with workers on automated, governors running many cities, and no tile micro whatsoever just to get the game done and submitted.)

I cannot blame bad luck or anything... I did have slightly bad luck on corporation spread success, and a fee poor breaks on GP selection, but I had better than average luck on the war front. I simply was much too sloppy in 3 key areas:

1- Warring efficiently (in particular getting roads up for the troops in time)
2- Corporation spread (especially with naval shipping of execs)
3- GP generation

Overall, the second half of the game was quite poorly played, and all I can say is I hope to do better next time.

 

[Seraiel]

I like the map in the lower right corner BiC, 93 cities really are a lot .

Gratz to revolting into Mercantilism right before the end of your last GA with that empire and Corps ^^ . At least you didn't revolt into Enviromentalism (sry ) .

1100 AD Sushi is a really good time .

 

[WastinTime]

Sushi was founded in 1170 AD exactly

Same turn for me.

 

[Folket]

I tried my plan with oromo warriors and nationalism. It was a little slow and oncce I attacked Stalin I I found that oromo warriors are not good enough against longbows on hills. I still wanted to use my oromo warriors so I teched everything that would delay my victory. I started with steel, then communism, then railroads and finally I gave up and got cavalry.

Once I got cav I ran over everyone. I did defeat Stalin with cannons and oromo warriors but after that I had 80 oromo warriors walking around not seeing any action as my cavalry ran ahead.

In hindsight I would have been much better off to attack with knights. I could easily have had them before longbows and faster movement would have helped a lot as well.

 

[Folket]

How come you have cottage on the plains but not on the riverside plains?

 

[Pangaea]

I tried my plan with oromo warriors and nationalism. It was a little slow and oncce I attacked Stalin I I found that oromo warriors are not good enough against longbows on hills.

I'm always underwhelmed by muskets, even the UU ones. The base strength is simply too low, and when they can't get CR it hurts a lot when attacking cities. Useful on defence and in the open, but for taking cities they're a bit pants really. Same with the Janissaries, and they have loads of bonuses. Muskets simply aren't very good, and these days I try to not use them, or use them very sparingly.

 

[Rusten]

Muskets are good, but their role is that of a support and stack protector with siege. They are good if you go steel for cannons. Knight/musket/cannons.

But this comes more into play in MP. In SP it's very rare that you want to go this route for a variety of reasons. Especially in GOTM as it's slow warfare.

 

[Seraiel]

Muskets (or Oromos) aren't as bad as you think, because they can be drafted. What would you think would be stronger, the 60 Oromos that I drafted for 60 population or the 25 Maces that I could have whipped for the same cost? Or 30 drafted Maces + 15 whipped Trebs against Castles?

It's like with Cavalry, everybody knows that they're a great unit, but the strongest? Not even remotely, the strongest units are drafted Rifles (or Quechua's ) simply because they're the most cost efficient. A Cavalry is an amazing weapon, but it has the price of 3 Rifles. Same with Maces, they're great before AIs have Castles, but from Castles onwards the only good units are Gunpowder-units and 10 Muskets still conquer a city defended by 4-5 Longbows ^^ . Definitely faster than bombarding it 100 turns, and the way from Gunpowder to Cannons (or Rifles) is not short, one could conquer 1-2 complete empires even before Cannons are available and that with a high tech-rate!

I agree with you, I also don't like Muskets in theory, but if you see units for what they actually are, Muskets are actually quite funny ^^ . Don't forget, that the only quality that measures a unit is if it wins, not if it wins 1:1 or 2:1 or has 95% odds or whatever, but in the end it's nothing more than invested for cities gained (+ the speed with which one can get those cities) .

 

[Folket]

Muskets (or Oromos) aren't as bad as you think, because they can be drafted. What would you think would be stronger, the 60 Oromos that I drafted for 60 population or the 25 Maces that I could have whipped for the same cost? Or 30 drafted Maces + 15 whipped Trebs against Castles?

It's like with Cavalry, everybody knows that they're a great unit, but the strongest? Not even remotely, the strongest units are drafted Rifles (or Quechua's ) simply because they're the most cost efficient. A Cavalry is an amazing weapon, but it has the price of 3 Rifles. Same with Maces, they're great before AIs have Castles, but from Castles onwards the only good units are Gunpowder-units and 10 Muskets still conquer a city defended by 4-5 Longbows ^^ . Definitely faster than bombarding it 100 turns, and the way from Gunpowder to Cannons (or Rifles) is not short, one could conquer 1-2 complete empires even before Cannons are available and that with a high tech-rate!

I agree with you, I also don't like Muskets in theory, but if you see units for what they actually are, Muskets are actually quite funny ^^ . Don't forget, that the only quality that measures a unit is if it wins, not if it wins 1:1 or 2:1 or has 95% odds or whatever, but in the end it's nothing more than invested for cities gained (+ the speed with which one can get those cities) .

Your logic has some flaws. The limit of only 3 drafts a turn made drafting oromos slower then just building units even without slavery.

The cost analysis also assume you could have different units at the same time. Knight/maces would have been more cost efficient in my game since I would be able to fight archers instead of having oromos fighting longbows.

 

[Seraiel]

Your logic has some flaws. The limit of only 3 drafts a turn made drafting oromos slower then just building units even without slavery.

The cost analysis also assume you could have different units at the same time. Knight/maces would have been more cost efficient in my game since I would be able to fight archers instead of having oromos fighting longbows.

I don't think it has flaws.

1. 3 drafts / turn are more than enough and drafting doesn't mean that you are not allowed to normally build or whip units

2. Reaching Gunpowder is usually not more difficult than reaching Guilds. Simply oracle CS and bulb Education and you're there.

 

[Folket]

Yes, an other option would be to ignore the plan to have nationalism and drafting.

 

[Pangaea]

Oromos are okay since you can draft them and they are a UU with some kind of benefit to them, but on their own, not taking into consideration drafting and such, muskets are kind of weak. Knights have a higher base strength, typically comes a little sooner, and are faster. Maces can get CR promotions. Castles in that period can be a kick in the nuts, but that goes for Muskets to an extent too, just not as much as with non-gunpowder based units.

Drafting also isn't limitless. It builds up unhappiness pretty fast, and if I'm first going to draft, I'd rather save that happiness limit for rifles rather than muskets. Rifles come later, ofc, but they're also much better.

Oracling CS isn't something you "simply" do either. Oracle can easily go to somebody else before you get a chance to take CS with it, unless you have a really strong commerce start. Great when it works, but in a game like this, with just one attempt, I wouldn't try something as risky as that, at least on decently high levels.

Anyway, it was just an observation. I've used muskets a few times, including Oromos (in other games too), and have always been underwhelmed. Probably okay for defending/stack protection, like Rusten mentions for MP games, but if you need to defend in SP games (AW aside), you're doing something wrong