BOTM 100 Final Spoiler - Game Submitted or Abandoned

[Pollina]

btw...I got 3700 from a trade mission

Nice! Running SP, I don't think you could get nearly that much gold, as your capital would be much smaller. It's also not very realistic to expect to run many trade missions during the late game. Slower general GP production means that pretty much all your late game Great People are needed for Golden Ages. Never thought about it, but it is possible that the 4 GP Golden Age was a bit of a waste this game...

 

[WastinTime]

Never thought about it, but it is possible that the 4 GP Golden Age was a bit of a waste this game...

I too have considered whether 4 GP used some other way is better than a GA. But it usually comes down to needing the hammers for SS parts. 4 GP aren't good at making hammers directly. So I would suggest that maybe taking a break and having no GA for a while. Then use the 3 GP GAge at the end. Fuel your mid-game with GM trade missions

 

[WastinTime]

At 760 AD, I had 32 cities and you had 22. Expansion takes some time to pay off.

^^ This is the key. Over the past couple years, I've come to believe that it's just about the only thing that matters.
I would argue that SP and Corps are even closer than 2-3 turns apart. And possibly that Corps could still be a couple turns better .

The way to find out would be to play Pollina's game with Corps starting at whatever turn was the point of no return.

Or maybe Jastrow went for corps and will shed some light on this. He had 20+ cities at 1ad.

 

[Pollina]

^^ This is the key. Over the past couple years, I've come to believe that it's just about the only thing that matters.
I would argue that SP and Corps are even closer than 2-3 turns apart. And possibly that Corps could still be a couple turns better .

The way to find out would be to play Pollina's game with Corps starting at whatever turn was the point of no return.

Or maybe Jastrow went for corps and will shed some light on this. He had 20+ cities at 1ad.

REX is even more important in a SP game, as you can't grow a city from pop1 to pop20 in 19 turns. This is another reason why Corps tend to be better on higher difficulties where expansion is often slower.

I definitely should have expanded even faster to get the most out of SP. I had too many underdeveloped cities in the end. If I were to play again, my goal would be 50 cities by 1000 AD. That should be enough for 1 tech/turn, or at least close.

 

[Jastrow]

Late (for this map) spaceship victory in 1580.

I was not at all happy with my post 0AD play. My warring was too sloppy and inefficient, and my corporation spread was too slow (indeed, half way through the spread, I realized that boats are so slow that I probably should have gone state property instead.) In the end, I realized that I was too slow to be competitive, so I did not optimize the finish, and also messed up my GP production/use. Careful play at the end would have made it to ~1560 (4 turns faster), but with all the good starts in the first spoiler, I was expecting a couple of people to be sniffing at a 1500 launch, so I knew 1560 would not win.

 

[Seraiel]

@ Jastrow: 1580 AD is perfect, last time you were 4T faster than me, now I'm 2T faster as you so we're mostly equal and now have a common enemy in Pollina. Let's simply agree on that I am again 2T faster next time and you can be faster as Pollina, like that we're equal and we both win ^^ .

 

[Jastrow]

Unfortunately, it feels FAR from perfect. While I am still not convinced corps were the correct decision, a half-way properly executed corps strategy should easily cut 8 to 10 turns off that data, and come in around 1530. While that would still would have lost to Pollina, I could at least be satisfied with the effort. 1580 just felt soooo slow that I barely decided to finish (I played the last ~20 turns in a single 90 minute session, with workers on automated, governors running many cities, and no tile micro whatsoever just to get the game done and submitted.)

I cannot blame bad luck or anything... I did have slightly bad luck on corporation spread success, and a fee poor breaks on GP selection, but I had better than average luck on the war front. I simply was much too sloppy in 3 key areas:

1- Warring efficiently (in particular getting roads up for the troops in time)
2- Corporation spread (especially with naval shipping of execs)
3- GP generation

Overall, the second half of the game was quite poorly played, and all I can say is I hope to do better next time.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Initial reaction :
"Whooh ! That map is big !"
But then :
"Okay, I like this maze, it's shaping up nicely."

I made a point to settle all the island cities I could,
Got Sushi sometime in the mid 1100's.
Killed Darius.
Got distracted by some S&T game.

More reactions :
"That map is really big. Can I make it in time ?
I don't think I can.
Well, whatever, I'll try !"

And I tried,
Kept settling cities, kept spreading Sushi and Confucianism,
Started pounding on the Khmer...
... got a 1500 AD surprise when Stalin DoWed me after accepting Sury as a vassal and captured several of my cities in the process.
Slugged an army out, finished the Khmer, liberated my Spiral Minaret city rolleyes and revolted into Mercantilism rolleyes right before the end of my 5th golden age...
... fought against strike for a few turns and called it a game.

It's been tough.
The logistics are very nice on these maps but coordinating it all is quite the exercise.
If one isn't careful, turns easily take 30 minutes for a very small gain.

Stats screen, proof of the effort :

Spoiler :

Anyway, thanks for hosting !

 

[Seraiel]

I like the map in the lower right corner BiC, 93 cities really are a lot .

Gratz to revolting into Mercantilism right before the end of your last GA with that empire and Corps ^^ . At least you didn't revolt into Enviromentalism (sry ) .

1100 AD Sushi is a really good time .

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Well, I only mentioned the main blunders There's been plenty of others, like that Sushi exec that got stuck for nearly 10 turns in an ice-caged city with no trade routes. I moved in 2 workers to build a fort on an ice and get the city a trade network
See ? It's size 3... I'm sure it paid off :

Spoiler :

Environmentalism crossed my mind for the extra health...
... took Merc for the free specs

Doing -1700gpt at end of game, most cities building wealth... it was time to trigger Dom.
Saw all sorts of city names, going full on ICS. I found it fun but yes, 100+ cities is a lot. Actually, it's too many for me.
Sushi was founded in 1170 AD exactly, on the same turn that the English civilization was destroyed...

 

[WastinTime]

Sushi was founded in 1170 AD exactly

Same turn for me.

 

[Folket]

I tried my plan with oromo warriors and nationalism. It was a little slow and oncce I attacked Stalin I I found that oromo warriors are not good enough against longbows on hills. I still wanted to use my oromo warriors so I teched everything that would delay my victory. I started with steel, then communism, then railroads and finally I gave up and got cavalry.

Once I got cav I ran over everyone. I did defeat Stalin with cannons and oromo warriors but after that I had 80 oromo warriors walking around not seeing any action as my cavalry ran ahead.

In hindsight I would have been much better off to attack with knights. I could easily have had them before longbows and faster movement would have helped a lot as well.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Same turn for me.

That, I suppose, is largely influenced by the date for Oxford University.
I got it in 740 AD, with 6200 gold in the bin, GA starting next turn. Reached Medicine with about 500 gold left.
Maybe OU didn't matter that much but it did determine the time I raised the slider again. My capital was rather underdeveloped, due to a lack of workers :

Spoiler :

Resulted in 1000 AD Liberalism --> Democracy.
Also got lucky enough for a 1030 AD Confu shrine.

 

[Folket]

How come you have cottage on the plains but not on the riverside plains?

 

[BornInCantaloup]

yeah... I noticed that as well ^^
I can't remember, I suppose it comes from the chop orders. Must have chopped north first (if it was forested ?).
Iirc, I used a lot of partial cottage turns, so that tile must have been improved almost accidentally. The riverside plains were definitely forested and chopped into Oxford.

 

[Pangaea]

I tried my plan with oromo warriors and nationalism. It was a little slow and oncce I attacked Stalin I I found that oromo warriors are not good enough against longbows on hills.

I'm always underwhelmed by muskets, even the UU ones. The base strength is simply too low, and when they can't get CR it hurts a lot when attacking cities. Useful on defence and in the open, but for taking cities they're a bit pants really. Same with the Janissaries, and they have loads of bonuses. Muskets simply aren't very good, and these days I try to not use them, or use them very sparingly.

 

[Rusten]

Muskets are good, but their role is that of a support and stack protector with siege. They are good if you go steel for cannons. Knight/musket/cannons.

But this comes more into play in MP. In SP it's very rare that you want to go this route for a variety of reasons. Especially in GOTM as it's slow warfare.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Yes, for 1-movers, Macemen would be the more classic choice

Slower warfare can be justified if it results in a smaller hammer cost.
(Provided you want to tech up, that it is.)

 

[Seraiel]

Muskets (or Oromos) aren't as bad as you think, because they can be drafted. What would you think would be stronger, the 60 Oromos that I drafted for 60 population or the 25 Maces that I could have whipped for the same cost? Or 30 drafted Maces + 15 whipped Trebs against Castles?

It's like with Cavalry, everybody knows that they're a great unit, but the strongest? Not even remotely, the strongest units are drafted Rifles (or Quechua's ) simply because they're the most cost efficient. A Cavalry is an amazing weapon, but it has the price of 3 Rifles. Same with Maces, they're great before AIs have Castles, but from Castles onwards the only good units are Gunpowder-units and 10 Muskets still conquer a city defended by 4-5 Longbows ^^ . Definitely faster than bombarding it 100 turns, and the way from Gunpowder to Cannons (or Rifles) is not short, one could conquer 1-2 complete empires even before Cannons are available and that with a high tech-rate!

I agree with you, I also don't like Muskets in theory, but if you see units for what they actually are, Muskets are actually quite funny ^^ . Don't forget, that the only quality that measures a unit is if it wins, not if it wins 1:1 or 2:1 or has 95% odds or whatever, but in the end it's nothing more than invested for cities gained (+ the speed with which one can get those cities) .

 

[Folket]

Muskets (or Oromos) aren't as bad as you think, because they can be drafted. What would you think would be stronger, the 60 Oromos that I drafted for 60 population or the 25 Maces that I could have whipped for the same cost? Or 30 drafted Maces + 15 whipped Trebs against Castles?

It's like with Cavalry, everybody knows that they're a great unit, but the strongest? Not even remotely, the strongest units are drafted Rifles (or Quechua's ) simply because they're the most cost efficient. A Cavalry is an amazing weapon, but it has the price of 3 Rifles. Same with Maces, they're great before AIs have Castles, but from Castles onwards the only good units are Gunpowder-units and 10 Muskets still conquer a city defended by 4-5 Longbows ^^ . Definitely faster than bombarding it 100 turns, and the way from Gunpowder to Cannons (or Rifles) is not short, one could conquer 1-2 complete empires even before Cannons are available and that with a high tech-rate!

I agree with you, I also don't like Muskets in theory, but if you see units for what they actually are, Muskets are actually quite funny ^^ . Don't forget, that the only quality that measures a unit is if it wins, not if it wins 1:1 or 2:1 or has 95% odds or whatever, but in the end it's nothing more than invested for cities gained (+ the speed with which one can get those cities) .

Your logic has some flaws. The limit of only 3 drafts a turn made drafting oromos slower then just building units even without slavery.

The cost analysis also assume you could have different units at the same time. Knight/maces would have been more cost efficient in my game since I would be able to fight archers instead of having oromos fighting longbows.