BOTM 100 First Spoiler - 1AD

[WastinTime]

I played a pretty fast and lazy 100 turns. No worker steals, no wars, 10 cities strongest unit: warrior.
Kinda bored--and annoyed that I have to research almost everything myself.

Then the Pyramids was built (Justinian) and I changed gears for the final 15 turns to 1 AD. I detoured 2 turns to HBR which delayed Education by 3 turns because I was out of money. I whipped out 8 Horses and 2 galleys to go with my existing 2 galleys. Captured the Mids. (11 cities at 1 AD)

I left Churchill alone so he would research. I stole Poly, then eventually plan to steal Construction and Philo. Trade for free Metal Casting.

Got early Paper, traded for maps and circumnavigated.

My university building was strained a bit since I just whipped everyone for HAs/galleys, but I got them up and did 1-turn Oxford without stone. Unfortunately, Justinian's capital (mids, henge, Great wall) was not going to be out of revolt and expand borders to get me stone.

I got the Tin event and then copper appeared in the same mine
My capital got a free silver just very recently.

Now I need to decide if I have the time/energy for Space Race or just a quick Diplo.

 

[Pangaea]

I'm sorry? You got Oxford by 1AD?

 

[WastinTime]

I'm sorry? You got Oxford by 1AD?

Pretty much...a few turns later because of the quest for Pyramids delayed me.

 

[Pangaea]

Amazing. A different league entirely.

 

[Seraiel]

on 1-turning Oxford without Stone. Interesting that you also only settled so "few" cities compared to the 20 of Jastrow. I'm still not sure which approach will be best in the end, more less developed smaller cities or a lot less, but those highly developed + national wonders etc.

 

[WastinTime]

I also did not build any forges (didn't have MC). Not sure I will build them for a while.

 

[Jastrow]

@Pangaea,

Oxford in the BC's is not unheard of, and gets reported in these spoilers once in a while. It always gets a big reaction, but reality is that getting it in the BC's is actually not that difficult (more common with a philosophical leader however.) The question which needs to be asked is how much one has given up for it.

What I mean is that one this map, pretty much anyone who decides that ALL he wants is Oxford by 1AD can do it by growing to only 6 cities, building no military beyond 6 warriors, and directing all forests towards it. This obviously would leave one in a bad position however.

My point is that "Oxford in already built" tends to be singled out, whereas it is just one element of the whole. In WT's case:

-Oxford has been built.
-His conquering Army is already moving.
-The pyramids are in hand.
-Has the circumnavigation bonus and good map knowledge.

A very nice package, and a very nice game. Quite different approach than mine, and I am not sure whose position I prefer. At least, I am happy with that. I was fearing that WT would be reporting BC oxford AND 20 cities by 1AD.

I am however EXTREMELY jealous of Tin, Copper AND Silver pops. The best I had gotten was whatever makes an Oasis be worth one extra coin.

 

[Jastrow]

@WT,

Can you give the rundown on the no stone 1-turn of Oxford? How many forests went into that? I can hardly imagine carrying more than 120 or so hammers from overflow (on an aqueduct, for example) and your capital's production is probably maxed at ~32 (I had 26 at the time. Copper gives you an extra 3, and I guess you could be working a citizen or two.) Did you put 6 forests into Oxford?

 

[Pangaea]

That's fair enough, Jastrow. It can surely be done here with enough sacrifice, especially if one are lucky enough to grab/capture stone by then. Oxford so early is a big boost, even with this kind of capital, and it does tend to get a big reaction I guess. By 1AD I had already decided not to go "all in" for Oxford ASAP, because the capital wasn't geared towards it due to late cottages. Not having stone also impacted things. As you say, WT has more things going for him than just early Oxford, particularly a very early Mids and presumably Rep. So early the main thing would be happiness, but the extra beakers will help too.

Some lucky random events as well there, boosting the capital no less. As I mentioned, I got the healing plant even, which has a 50/50 for killing off many citizens, and I lost around 10 pop through that. With so many small cities, that hurts a great deal, like postponing granary whips.

Would be interesting to hear about 1-turn Oxford without stone. Can't exactly whip the capital into nothingness in search for overflow either, so I have to assume many forests were involved.

The thing here is that one can preserve overflow for a long while with buildings, though, so it's not needed to basically do all the whipping just before Oxford. Do it early enough, but not so early that the hammers start decaying, and you will get regrowth faster than if you whip at size 10-12+.

I don't think an incredibly early Oxford here will be as big a boost as on some other maps though.

 

[WastinTime]

@WT,

Can you give the rundown on the no stone 1-turn of Oxford? How many forests went into that? I can hardly imagine carrying more than 120 or so hammers from overflow (on an aqueduct, for example) and your capital's production is probably maxed at ~32 (I had 26 at the time. Copper gives you an extra 3, and I guess you could be working a citizen or two.) Did you put 6 forests into Oxford?

I only did 2 whip overflows, so it was 5 forests.

 

[Jastrow]

What am I missing?

5 forests are 225 Hammers. Your production is about 30. This means you need to carry over ~145. You can do that with two whips, but you need something to carry it over in. As I understand carry-over, the maximum you can take is the cost of the item being built (anything more is converted to gc). A courthouse is only 120, and I cant think of anything else you could use for the carry over (well, HG, but that would be inefficient to whip in).

Is there some additional trick I am overlooking??

 

[WastinTime]

What am I missing?

5 forests are 225 Hammers. Your production is about 30. This means you need to carry over ~145. You can do that with two whips, but you need something to carry it over in. As I understand carry-over, the maximum you can take is the cost of the item being built (anything more is converted to gc). A courthouse is only 120, and I cant think of anything else you could use for the carry over (well, HG, but that would be inefficient to whip in).

Is there some additional trick I am overlooking??

I was running OrgRel for +25%

 

[Jastrow]

Ahhhhh! Thanks!

I excluded forges (per your post above) and could not think of any other multipliers.

 

[Seraiel]

What am I missing?

5 forests are 225 Hammers. Your production is about 30. This means you need to carry over ~145. You can do that with two whips, but you need something to carry it over in. As I understand carry-over, the maximum you can take is the cost of the item being built (anything more is converted to gc). A courthouse is only 120, and I cant think of anything else you could use for the carry over (well, HG, but that would be inefficient to whip in).

Is there some additional trick I am overlooking??

You're still missing something, the maximum that can be carried over is a) the cost of the build in base or b) the production of the city in base- whatever is higher.

So i. e. you can carry over 40 from a build that costs 120 when you got *3 modifiers, but if the city produces 100 you can carry over 100 base- even with cheaper builds.

 

[Seraiel]

I also have a question:

What decides whether a city gets the "colonial maintenance" modifier? It's the 1st time I encounter that one and it's huge, knowing about it would maybe have made me settle completely different, because it drains on my economy. Is it when 2 cities are on another continent so when founding a colony would be possible? So only found 1 city / continent or very many and then build the FP there?

 

[Pangaea]

I also have a question:

What decides whether a city gets the "colonial maintenance" modifier? It's the 1st time I encounter that one and it's huge, knowing about it would maybe have made me settle completely different, because it drains on my economy. Is it when 2 cities are on another continent so when founding a colony would be possible? So only found 1 city / continent or very many and then build the FP there?

Pretty sure it's when you have a 'continent' (incl. island) separate from where your capital is, and you have two or more cities there. If you have such a place with two or more cities, hover over the maintenance cost in a city screen, and there should be a small colony maintenance. Usually a big problem on Terra.

You're still missing something, the maximum that can be carried over is a) the cost of the build in base or b) the production of the city in base- whatever is higher.

So i. e. you can carry over 40 from a build that costs 120 when you got *3 modifiers, but if the city produces 100 you can carry over 100 base- even with cheaper builds.

Lets try some math. 400 / 1.75 (OR + Buro) = 228 . 150h from 5 forests, means you need at least 78 from production and overflow. With two near-max OF-whips, that is certainly doable. Quite impressive really, though I'm not sure I'd keep that many forests around for 1-turning Oxford.

Will be interesting to see what victory you go for WastinTime. Looks like a solid base for going to space. But also fine for continuing warfare, or later diplo.

 

[Seraiel]

Ok, "Humbleness" (name of my capital) "we have a problem" . I didn't knew about this mechanic and I think we all will agressively either settle or take over the other continents. We can't create Colonies that are 20 cities large because that'd be worse than paying the colonial maintenance, but this mechanic imo. is the biggest and most stupid /)?"$%&"/$)§ that I've ever seen. I wonder that I never noticed it when playing Space Races on Terra, maybe because I usually only settle 2 cities there first (NP + FP) and chop out the FP very fast. Thx BiC.

[EDIT]

I played my games with the "No Vassals" option and that one deletes the modifier because founding colonies is impossible...

 

[Pangaea]

State Property also removes colony maintenance, so that could be an option. Not a great one, perhaps, with such a map, but it is an option

Best to get up Forbidden Palace asap. Then there is Versailles too, if you want to take over many continents. For once, Divine Right may actually have some value besides tradebait

 

[WastinTime]

State Property also removes colony maintenance, so that could be an option. Not a great one, perhaps, with such a map, but it is an option

I thought colony maint. was different than distance maint. In other works StateProp would have no effect. I have almost zero experience with colony maint. so I could be wrong.
Thx, Seraiel, for falling into that trap and letting us all know before we get caught too

 

[Pangaea]

I thought colony maint. was different than distance maint. In other works StateProp would have no effect. I have almost zero experience with colony maint. so I could be wrong.
Thx, Seraiel, for falling into that trap and letting us all know before we get caught too

SP does remove it, and by reading that thread that was linked, it is because colony maintenance is capped at 2x distance maintenance, and since SP removes distance maintenance...

PS: It always amazes me how people seem to have links to excellent age-old threads at the tip of their fingers all the time.