BOTM 101 -- First Spoiler to 1AD

[kcd_swede]

It is what it is... so it is with all BOTM/WOTM/GOTM's. Sometimes it makes you happy, sometimes it doesn't. Always something to make you come back for more... or so we wish.

 

[Seraiel]

It is what it is... so it is with all BOTM/WOTM/GOTM's. Sometimes it makes you happy, sometimes it doesn't. Always something to make you come back for more... or so we wish.

Yes, you wish, but games like that do the exact opposite with me. It's not about if I get 1st place or not, it's about if a game makes fun and having lost at T0 is none. I already decided that I'll play one more game of that type and after that I'm going to not play the games you host anymore. If I fail because I play suboptimal then it's ok, but in this game I didn't even have the chance! I went Agri -> Masonry -> BW, built Worker -> Warrior -> GW, improved the Corn, the Gems, the Silver, built a Mine and chopped 2 Forests working the heaviest tiles once I ran out of improved tiles, the only ways to reach the GW faster are by screwing one's opening with doing things like not improving tiles and only chopping and / or 2-pop-whipping a Wonder with Malus to get the 2nd city at 1500 BC. If you script a game in a way that it can screw its players before they even started playing it you at least should hand out a warning like "don't expect to get any Wonders" or "espionage-assisted cultural victory excluded towards preserving your own fun" or whatever. If I weren't a hardcore player and knew you I might have thrown the towel directly and would not be willing to make a 2nd try or at least remain playing the games of map-makers that I believe that they will not screw me intentionally.

 

[ikotomi]

That's really unfortunate, but I thought it was pretty obvious that there was something weird going on from the description. Since you only get one shot at the game, it's expected that people take more calculated risks that don't screw them over completely when they fail.

Rushing Great Wall on a high commerce map with no barbarians is going to be such a niche strategy that I don't think any map maker should be criticized for not warning people to not go for it.

 

[Pangaea]

There was some token warning about having given Moreau some techs, and I suppose one of them was Masonry, but looking at the score on T0, I don't think he had a lot of free techs. I was more taken aback by the military score on T0, so he must have had a decent sized army already then, which kept climbing pretty fast. Obviously things went 'south' very early in my game too, so I didn't have much choice, but due to that high military count, I doubt I would have risked going onto the island very early.

Not finished playing yet, and can't say anything about post-1AD progress, but I really liked the uniqueness of the scenario. It's totally different from what we would get in a self-started game, and that is fun to me.

But it could have been even worse. I didn't notice Suleiman's stack on my border until the warhorns sounded. But thankfully I suspected he may do something naughty like that, so I had a good sized stack in that city, on a hill.

Oh, and had I advanced on the Moreau-settled 2x-wheat city a turn later, I wouldn't have been able to bribe off Suleiman in time, and it was only defended by two chariots... Of course, had I advanced yet a turn earlier, instead of waiting for a few lagging swords, we could have taken it before him without the need to bribe him off. So there are potential swings and roundabouts all over in these games

 

[Seraiel]

Rushing Great Wall on a high commerce map with no barbarians is going to be such a niche strategy that I don't think any map maker should be criticized for not warning people to not go for it.

Rushing the GW is no niche strategy, no matter which settings, it's the only competetive strategy for an espionage-assisted Cultural Victory (EACV) . No Barbarians + Inland Sea are the standard HoF settings for those, for me it was completely logical to play one because of my HoF experience being an advantage for me. 2 shinies are also very HoF like, so this game had ideal settings for an EACV. I accept that it may have been by accident, but taking away all early wonders from the players needs to be mentioned in a sentence at least since EACVs exist because those rely on the GW and there is no other competetive way. This is different to a player not getting the Mids or not getting the Oracle, because the last don't destroy a complete game when missing them. If a player shall not have a Wonder, simple, give an AI that Wonder from the start, then there's no crying because everybody knows it and everybody can adapt and has the same chances. I wonder anyhow, why the Oracle is not given to an AI in every single GOTM because oracling something like CS or missing it makes such a huge difference for such a little investment.

 

[ikotomi]

I just realized that this was the first BoTM without the disclaimer that espionage-culture victories count as cultural victories. Up to this point, I just assumed that espionage victories didn't count for anything different. Is this intentional, and all BOTM's include espionage victories now?

 

[kcd_swede]

I just realized that this was the first BoTM without the disclaimer that espionage-culture victories count as cultural victories. Up to this point, I just assumed that espionage victories didn't count for anything different. Is this intentional, and all BOTM's include espionage victories now?

Not yet. Maybe when BUFFY.004 gets debugged. I copied some text from an older announcement and missed the espionage = culture disclaimer. But if nothing is explicitly stated to the contrary, you may assume that no distinction will be made between esp-culture and normal culture VC.

There was no intention to affect any specific victory strategy other than moving the animals to the island. I can't warn about avoiding some strategies when any impact is unintended/unknown. And I can't guess what strategies everyone will try and test them all. I'm sorry when it happens, but I don't really know how to improve on that point.

Having played SGOTM's...My advice to players then is that going all-in on one strategy when the map is not a random generated map (even when it is, actually) is taking a big risk - so be sure its a risk you want to take -- and always have a Plan B.

 

[Seraiel]

You apology honors you, I appreciate that you do so and I accept that this was unintended and therefore apologize myself aswell.

Just so that you know, with all-in there is no plan B ^^ . A famous german polition once said that "those who have a plan B aren't pursuing Plan A thoroughly enough" . Just make sure that you don't put Ramesses and Hatty in 3 different variations each (like in the one SGOTM with Tokugawa, Hatsegawa etc. ) and give them Masonry + Priesthood and improved Marble + Stone Quarries or if you do so, then plz write a sentence that you did .

 

[kcd_swede]

You apology honors you, I appreciate that you do so and I accept that this was unintended and therefore apologize myself aswell.

Just so that you know, with all-in there is no plan B ^^ . A famous german polition once said that "those who have a plan B aren't pursuing Plan A thoroughly enough" . Just make sure that you don't put Ramesses and Hatty in 3 different variations each (like in the one SGOTM with Tokugawa, Hatsegawa etc. ) and give them Masonry + Priesthood and improved Marble + Stone Quarries or if you do so, then plz write a sentence that you did .

Don't worry... next time I'm giving the human player the only sources of marble/stone, and making sure there are no IND leaders and none with a high wonder-affinity.

 

[Seraiel]

Don't worry... next time I'm giving the human player the only sources of marble/stone, and making sure there are no IND leaders and none with a high wonder-affinity.

Very good, I'll oracle Education, build the HGs on the final turn and and start constructing SH when I need the 1st monument .

 

[Minou]

Settled S,SW which ended up being a pretty sweet spot with the revelation of the hidden wet Corn (and later Iron). The capital spammed Settlers by growing to 4, whipping and repeating, which let neighboring cities (Silver/Wheat/Bronze to NE and Gold/Banana to the west) share Corns as needed. Ended up reaching Alphabet at 1320BC (Sury actually beat me there at 1560BC).

One thoughtless mistake was letting my Warrior exploring to the west wander away from the coastline, slowing the hook-up of some foreign trade routes. A war broke out between Sury and three other AIs but it seems to be a waste of time with single units marching for centuries to their doom. For me, it has meant I can run a skeleton defense as the AIs are too busy to look my way.

For most of the game, I did not bother with ships and the only thing I knew about the Doctor was that he had a few Archers and a highly promoted Bear (which still would have been only about as strong as an Axe it seems). Then, all of a sudden he raided one of my Coastal cities with Chariots! I was able to capture it back with two Spears but ran into a close call as Sulieman was marching a huge stack to attack Sury and diverted them so they would take my city from the Doctor a turn before I could liberate it myself. I realized then that I could bribe him to make peace with the Doctor and did so, allowing me to get the city back. At that point I bribed the other AIs to make peace as well, as there were some invasion forces on the island. This should hopefully allow me to claim all those animals myself without having to fight any Immortal AIs, which I am proud to have realized in time. I would have to double-check, but I think the Doctor has faired less well with Wonders in my game compared to what others have reported. My Spy landed to scout his land was quickly captured but he seems to have only Archers, Chariots and Axes - plus some annoying Tiremes, which I have started sinkng.

At 1AD I have just finished the 6 Universities (but won't be 1-turning Oxford). 11 cities (and 1 Settler a turn from founding), all self-founded with 39 pop (lost a bunch whipping Universities) and 31 techs with research at 203bpt but currently turned to 0% while finishing the Oxford push. All the usable land up to AI borders is settled (lost only one semi-worthwhile site to Sury), so the next plan is to invade the Doctor's island and use the Horses for some mounted units to attack Sury, since everyone hates him and he has a few wonders to capture.

 

[WastinTime]

fyi, you can easily win Espionage faster than culture without the GW. Sure, you can't get a really early GSpy, but who cares? you don't need it until the end of the game. Skip Scotland Yard, don't settle any Spies and just use all EP bombs.

 

[Seraiel]

Skipping Scotland Yard would completely cripple my Bureacracy approach. With players like Rusten achieving BC Liberalism there is little place for non-optimal games. You're talking about early Nationalism right?