[BTS] BOTM 117 Final Spoiler, Game Submitted - Emperor Asoka

[Deckhand]

BOTM 117 - Final Spoiler

So how did your game go after 1AD?



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[Rusten]

Space victory 1450 AD

This game felt a lot like last SGOTM in some ways. I misjudged the pace of my game and ended up doing some silly things as a result. I was set on democracy and emancipation cottages, but I was teching so fast that there was no time for them to develop. I should've started on workshops earlier. Was my first space game in many years though, so overall I'm pretty satisfied -- certainly an early victory date!

My teching was obscene in the 500-1200 AD range, but I could've improved my game a bit after communism by making workshops earlier and skipping cottages.

 

[MarleysGh0st]

Finding myself far behind in tech and at war with two AI at 1 AD, I questioned whether it was worth playing this out any further. Japan signed a ceasefire in 175, but Babylon would not end the war for anything less than an border city. I continued the defensive war until Japan attacked again in 375. With this, I accepted the inevitable and retired in 425 AD.

So...I decided to replay the game for fun, this time holding to Deckhand's challenge. I went for pottery earlier in this game and the cottages helped me stay reasonably competitive in tech. Accepting their religion made the Japanese and Zulu pleased with me, but the Aztecs attacked me and captured a border city (a barb city that I culture flipped). The Zulu had already fought a war with the Aztecs, but they wouldn't come to my aid, despite being WHEOOHRN. And then France and Babylon dogpiled on me and I decided to quit again, this time in 700 AD.

Sigh.

 

[nocho]

Impressive stuff, Rusten! I kind of don't want to know what dates you're capable of when you're not rusty at space anymore. Maybe compete with WT for BC space?

I do have one slightly more serious question, how did your teching become that obscene if you didn't have time for demo-cottages to develop nor did you have workshops early on? Rep/caste scientists with a huge empire? What were your oxford and lib dates and what did you get from it?

I had a more modest date of 1705 space. Captured the Aztecs first, then went for the French, but hadn't noticed a defensive pact he had with Babylon. That did cost some painful whipping and drafting in border cities to defend, but in the end Babylon's turf was much more valuable than the French. Libbed bio, could've gotten something more valuable but deemed communism necessary asap, so had to get lib sooner rather than later. A bit unlucky with GP births near the end for a well timed 4-GP GA, but probably only cost 2 or 3 turns.

 

[Rusten]

1705 isn't too bad!

Doing a proper write-up is very daunting as there's so much to cover and such a long time span, so I didn't start on one yet, nor do I think I will. Maybe if this thread sees good activity. It's much easier to answer such questions.

I took MT with Liberalism 300-350 AD somewhere. I figured (correctly) that there was more to gain from the earlier capture of cities than getting more beakers with it later. Also worth mentioning here that I didn't have machinery, so I could lightbulb liberalism itself (this rarely happens). I did tech the "worthless" compass to enable it though. But it's basically liberalism for 700 or so beakers. Or in this case, MT for 700 beakers.

Oxford was not built until 580 AD (delayed due to war preparations).

Teching came from all kinds of sources. I had a monster capital with towns, I had cities running representation specialists, etc etc, but I guess the main thing would be having a large empire early. Size matters. I had reached my limit at 1000 AD (although some areas were still revolting). Some numbers for reference:
600 BPT (GA) 350 AD
1150 BPT at 720 AD
3000 BPT (GA) at 1000 AD,
5500 BPT (GA) at 1150 AD (at this point some coal plants have finished and I'm producing research)

I was running representation and bureaucracy all game, and as it turned out I remained in caste system for a while even after discovering Democracy. This was one of the awkward situations. I wanted to start growing cottages but the captured cities were still revolting and I needed a couple of GPs so I remained in caste. My early Democracy only resulted in the SoL.
Also I had no way to get a GE in time for corporations, so going state property seemed obvious for less maintenance, but then: why not also run workshops? Basically it all turned into a mess and my tile improvements from ~6-700 AD and onwards were poor (or at least weird). I was running representation+emancipation or caste (switched between) +SP and making cottages. A truly weird and suboptimal mix. Considering the early finish, all of the improvements after war, even in most of Babylon, should've been workshops. For reference I wiped out Babylon -> Aztec -> France.

I never got enough towns to warrant universal suffrage either. I had 150+ villages at one point, but only a few dozen towns.

I've no interest in playing marathon speed so count me out of the BC space race.
Speaking of game speed: games like this actually remind me of the many disadvantages of normal speed. For one I launched 1350 AD but didn't win until 1450 AD (strict 10t wait). Secondly cities that I captured in the 500-800 AD range were in revolt for nearly 10 turns -- that's 2 centuries on normal speed. So much lost science and production. Then there's the "obvious" parts like travel time.

 

[Rusten]

I had a more modest date of 1705 space. Captured the Aztecs first, then went for the French, but hadn't noticed a defensive pact he had with Babylon. That did cost some painful whipping and drafting in border cities to defend, but in the end Babylon's turf was much more valuable than the French. Libbed bio, could've gotten something more valuable but deemed communism necessary asap, so had to get lib sooner rather than later. A bit unlucky with GP births near the end for a well timed 4-GP GA, but probably only cost 2 or 3 turns.

When did you wipe out the AIs? And with what tech/unit? How many turns per war? Were you drafting riflemen?

 

[nocho]

When did you wipe out the AIs? And with what tech/unit? How many turns per war? Were you drafting riflemen?

I wiped them out too late.

It was a bit of an a-typical game. The Aztecs were buddhist and the rest hindus so I jumped the hindu-wagon. The Aztecs were fighting Zulus and Babylonians and just when they signed peace with the Zulus, but still at war with Babylon, he declared which caught me off-guard. This was in the early ADs. Also Nappy joined in on me. So had to divert to war mode. Opted for self teching feudalism for defense and while I went that line decided to go bottom half with the future communist workshops in mind (guilds, chem). Normally I'd try to get to MT asap too, but here decided on knights. Eventually brought the Aztecs down with them, but way too late, already past 1000 AD. Then declaring on the French in 1250 AD while teching Assembly Line, ironically with cuirs (upgraded knights) and airships. This DoW triggered the DP Napoleon had with my good friend Babylon (ups!) who had a rather sizeable cuir army next to my soft southern belly. So there I had to do some emergency whips and drafts, but only defensively. The army meant for France just captured the one city and then was transported south. That war went more smoothly than expected when I got on the offensive and Babylon was broken about 10 turns later in 1350AD (when you launched ).

All-in-all, should have gone in war mode myself much earlier. Now the lush enemy lands were in my possession just too late to contribute significantly. Or rather, they did contribute significantly (got quite a few space parts built in former Aztec and Babylon cities), but if I had gotten them earlier bpt would've gone out of the roof much earlier, like in your game. In 1250AD I was at 2500 bpt in GA just before declaring. That didn't feel too bad, but if I had had Babylon by then already, surely it'd be approaching 4000 bpt or so.

Anyway, it was an enjoyable game.

 

[Rusten]

I wiped them out too late.

Indeed. In a space game what truly matters is how early you reach your max size (developed). Whether you're getting 100, 200 or 300 BPT at 200 AD is not that interesting in itself. It's only a bonus to have the 300 if that in fact is getting you to the next step in the plan quicker (usually it does), be that a key tech or whatnot. The beakers are easily regained later on with a huge empire. Sometimes research should be sacrificed for earlier conquest of enemy lands for instance. It's all a big puzzle -- that's what makes civ 4 so great and replayable.

Anyway, it was an enjoyable game.

+1
Deckhand! You always put some thought into your maps and usually there's a twist.

 

[kcd_swede]

My game went south fast after 1000AD. I had a really nice espionage game going with Aztec a good number of techs in the lead, and was anticipating easily surpassing him to get to space-
but then I got DOW'd by the Japs- and I fought them well (keeping to the mapmaker's challenge rules), but before he would talk, I got DOW'd by Babylon. At about 1300AD or so, the Aztecs joined. I ended up losing all cities but my capitol Dehli, before I could get peace.

So I just played it out as a 1-city challenge, knowing the next dow would be my last - but it never came. The French even gave back Bombay after taking it from Babylon. The French and the Japanese were eventualy eliminated, and the Babylonians beat the Aztec to space at about 1926AD. I got enough pop, culture (Dehli ended the #2 ranked city in the world) and culture push - plus a lot of stolen tech, and finished with a score of 2300 or so... so maybe a second Green ambulance in as many games. Nothing to be proud of, I know, but no shame either, as these were tough and challenging games.

I think if I had been prepared for what was (for a long time) an ALWAYS WAR game, I might have gotten better reults. But I have real dificulty seing a path to victory playing by the mapmaker challenge rules. Perhaps an espionage-asisted culture victory, but then I'd need some way to get some cities back militarily - which was my main problem. So I doubt it. In retrospect... with a lot of luck, it might have worked as I'd only needed one more city - and if it was legendary when I took it, the game would win before I got stomped. Might have even been able to culture-flip one of my old cities. I never figured the AI would stop targetting me once I was down to one city, though. That was weird, but probably predictable by experts. Is it true that AI will not DOW you when you have only 1 city???

 

[bcool]

Tried Space without war. Lots of difficulties and interesting developments. So many of my space games are fueled by world conquest that it was a challenge to rethink the strategy. My early game was very weak I think. I didn't attempt the oracle and expanded too fast without teching pottery for cottages. I thought I could trade for much more but Napoleon is very poor tech trader, so my early game was stalled since I rushed alphabet and didn't get much for the effort.

Mid game I almost lost to the AI when they came within 20 votes of a religious victory. Had to employ emergency espionage strategies to flip religions around.

I ended up doing a lot of cultural espionage missions and building the Sistine chapel. Eventually convinced the friendly AI to crush my bothersome neighbors and culturally flipped a few cities (or settled in the space opened up during the captured city revolt time period.) Also had a interesting surprise, the friendly AI gifted me 2 cities they captured that I had aggressively filled with my culture through espionage.

Didn't get a great engineer for a long time and I didn't know if corporations made sense with so little access to corporation resources. Eventually got a great engineer in 1500's and started corporations and trade for a decent amount of resources. (built Broadway and Rock 'n Roll for extra trading resources)

No access to aluminum hurt. I realized too late that the corporation that gives access to aluminum actually made sense (and should have been planned for). I did found it eventually and discovered that you can upgrade tanks and airplanes in that city to modern armor and jet aircraft. Interesting.

1790 AD space win without initiating a war (or capturing an AI city). Lots of defensive wars. It is hard to get peace when you can't capture cities too (another unpleasant realization).

 

[Deckhand]

^

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I couldn't make it. Retired on 1090 AD.

Accepted some delays from the S&T forums, which made it tough on my available time.

Then, and foremost, I played too passive militarily (peaceful teching up) and did too much of middle finger diplomacy (adopt my own Confucianism, not spreading it to the AIs),
Which resulted in me being DoWed by most AIs. 4 out of 5 DoWed me. The 5th is at war with 3 of them and is bound to disappear (Friendly Confu Napoleon).
50 AD : Napolulu declares, bribing in Nippoleon ; they both capture a city ; I take them back ; buy peace.
600 AD : I've got siege, getting ready to DoW Napolulu who has the best wonders (Mausoleum of Mausoles) when Napolyon declares on me. Quick Castle allows to defend, buying a lot of time but preventing any progress.
1010 AD : I've taken a city from Napolyon and taken peace. Have DoWed on Napolulu and now it's Napoluma who declares war on me. Can't get a quick Castle because I already researched Economics, lose a city with about 10 defenders in... badly outnumbered on the eastern front.

That's about when I retired. Swamped in slowish wars with an okay but not so great tech pace (about 1000 bpt).
I hoped to make up for the lost time but fighting uphill like that requires a lot of care. I'd likely lose another city to Napoluma in the following turns, while slowly pushing towards Napolulu's wonders. Tech would be directed towards Rifling (maybe using Liberalism and finally improving the diplo with Free Religion) to eventually fight back Napoluma. Napoluma isn't willing to talk at the moment, so impossible to offer a tribute for peace.

Overall, it would have been a slog.

Some good lessons reminded in this game :
- use warriors to protect the initial settler :roll:
- have some early military to take control over the map : expand first, then tech up. Straining the eco to tech up first simply makes one reach a plateau too soon.
- never neglect both the military and the diplo.

Thanks for hosting,
Congrats @ those who made it. Rusten's date... whoah ! That's the power of your 1 AD 25 workers at work.

 

[Xcalibrator]

Sorry, didn't finish or submit. Have recently lost the will to liv..., er, play. I took DH's peaceful challenge and would have won a late Space victory--about 20 turns to go, I figure, with some date in the 1800s. As seen in the 1 AD spoilers, my start paled in comparison to most others, particulary Rusten's. At one point I had three AIs attack me but managed to hold the line. I gradually improved relations mostly via religion and then civics (Representation), ending up Friendly with all the surviving AIs. Monte was wiped out fairly late, and then the guy to our SE (I forget who) very late. I helped things along in both cases and captured several cities but had to give them back/away. There were a lot of ambiguities regarding the no-DoW challenge, even more than I bothered to ask about, but they didn't matter much. I think I had 9 or 10 cities and concentrated on hammer-enhancing buildings so I could build science/wealth and spaceship parts and gradually built up a technology lead. Several Great Merchants ran trade missions.

 

[bcool]

My game didn't get accepted. Not sure why. My computer hard drive recently died and I had to reinstall the game, so some of the settings might have gotten changed or lost.

 

[kcd_swede]

My game didn't get accepted. Not sure why. My computer hard drive recently died and I had to reinstall the game, so some of the settings might have gotten changed or lost.

I fixed that - your game will be included. Ignore the email you may have received. Next time, it is better to contact the game admin by PM instead of posting here.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I ended up doing a lot of cultural espionage missions and building the Sistine chapel. Eventually convinced the friendly AI to crush my bothersome neighbors and culturally flipped a few cities (or settled in the space opened up during the captured city revolt time period.) Also had a interesting surprise, the friendly AI gifted me 2 cities they captured that I had aggressively filled with my culture through espionage.

That seems very... cool ? City flipping is awesome

 

[Xcalibrator]

As someone who couldn't be bothered to finish, I have no right to ask, but .... Results?

 

[Deckhand]

As someone who couldn't be bothered to finish, I have no right to ask, but .... Results?

Written many times - in my head. But never made it to pixels yet. No valid excuse. Maybe soon. Sorry I'm late.

 

[kcd_swede]

Whew! I thought that was to me.