BOTM03 First Spoiler

[Ribannah]

[challenger]

It is 1475bc and we know nobody. That is to say, we knew them well, the Japanese, the English, the Aztecs, the Inca, but they are no longer around.

Settled in place and when Lisbon expanded we found Kyoto, blocking a passage and heavily protected. They sent an unprotected Worker to the cow. I grabbed him, the Archers looked at this mischief from their hilltop and did nothing. I decided that they had to go since surely beyond there must be better land than tundra and snow.
I had already started with two Warriors and continued to amass them. Used one Warrior as bait at a time. Japan got impatient and attacked with their Archers, first one and then the other, and as they were now in the open and damaged I could easily dispatch with both of them. With Kyoto defended by only one Warrior, I attacked and took the city in 3200bc.
I had continued building a few more Warriors and had them all swarm out over the huge continent. We found England and upon seeing the gold we attacked forthwith with three of our guys, to find it defended by only one Warrior. In 2750bc, London was ours. Other Warriors were already wading through the jungle and located the Aztecs shortly after. They had just built a new city and had one Warrior in each of their towns, so we took Tenochtitlan in 2475bc (sadly, as it appeared, in a suboptimal spot) and destroyed Teotihuacan in 2350bc. Didn't find anyone else on the continent, so we started on the long road to connect Tenochtitlan to the rest of the empire, while Lisbon finished Stonehenge. Must have that expansion tool!

In 1950bc, an exploring Workboat found the Inca in the east. Signed Open Borders shortly after, and brought some Warriors over with a Galley, followed by a Chariot from Tenochtitlan. Declared, put our best Warriors right next to their capital with the Galley and brought the Chariot in from outside the city, now defended by a single Archer. The Chariot died, but we took Cuzco in 1475bc.

At this point we have towns claiming the stone & iron near London, catching the pigs that London doesn't need, the copper in the east opposite of Incaland, and 5 food sources northeast of Kyoto. The economy is extremely poor, and we will probably have to fight off hordes of Barbarians soon. London is building the Moai Statues.

Technology
3700bc The Wheel
3450bc Mining
3025bc Bronze Working
2875bc Mysticism
2650bc Fishing
2625bc Agriculture
2525bc Pottery
2475bc Hunting
2350bc Animal Husbandry
2200bc Sailing
1825bc Iron Working
1725bc Writing
1625bc Masonry

Towns
4000bc Lisbon
3200bc Kyoto
2750bc London
2475bc Tenochtitlan
1750bc Oporto
1600bc Guimaraes
1550bc Coimbra
1475bc Cuzco

 

[jesusin]

[challenger]

It is 1475bc and we know nobody. That is to say, we knew them well, the Japanese, the English, the Aztecs, the Inca, but they are no longer around.

Well done, Ribannah, keep up the good work.

 

[mabraham]

Indeed, props to jesusin. At challenger level, this kind of approach may even be necessary to do well. There's a clue in the scenario description - only the closest AI gets the archer bonus.

I found in my game that Lizzy was hopelessly underdefended, and that seems like consensus of people's experience. Thus a slightly delayed, boated warrior rush seems like a great opening for challenger.

Well, I've been proved wrong! Props to these efforts too... I especially like the archer-baiting. Nice work!

Challenger, :snip:

After examining the land on our peninsula, I decided that rushing Tokugawa ASAP is a must, even with the extra archers in the challenger version. Even the southern spot with fish & marble wasn't good enough to justify building a settler before troops in this case, because for conquest we need very powerfull production cities, and that city would have only added a tundra quarry and a single plains hill.

After finding out that we don't have copper, I decided to go for an archer rush.

[challenger]

It is 1475bc and we know nobody. That is to say, we knew them well, the Japanese, the English, the Aztecs, the Inca, but they are no longer around.

Settled in place and when Lisbon expanded we found Kyoto, blocking a passage and heavily protected. They sent an unprotected Worker to the cow. I grabbed him, the Archers looked at this mischief from their hilltop and did nothing. I decided that they had to go since surely beyond there must be better land than tundra and snow.
I had already started with two Warriors and continued to amass them. Used one Warrior as bait at a time. Japan got impatient and attacked with their Archers, first one and then the other, and as they were now in the open and damaged I could easily dispatch with both of them. With Kyoto defended by only one Warrior, I attacked and took the city in 3200bc.

 

[humbe]

Wow.. Are you gonna warrior rush the rest of the world too, once you research Optics? Thought the AI woulda gotten way too far after walking so far with slow warriors..

I tend to try to keep peace with AIs as long as they're not in the way of my expansion that much. On harder difficulties I'd think the neighbors are good as research partners so you can tech trade with them to not fall behind compared to the other continent. But as this is noble, I guess there's not much help to be had. I'm in tech-lead in my game anyways.

 

[Obormot]

Japan got impatient and attacked with their Archers, first one and then the other, and as they were now in the open and damaged I could easily dispatch with both of them. With Kyoto defended by only one Warrior, I attacked and took the city in 3200bc.

I thought the AI wouldn't take the bait when they only have a single archer in the city. Is there some trick that I don't know of?

 

[Ribannah]

Wow.. Are you gonna warrior rush the rest of the world too, once you research Optics?

It will take ages to get to Optics at 10% research, and then I still have to find them and finally bring my units over ... but Swordsmen and Chariots might be sufficient.

I thought the AI wouldn't take the bait when they only have a single archer in the city. Is there some trick that I don't know of?

Yes. They built a Warrior, so they didn't leave the city unprotected.

 

[Obormot]

Yes. They built a Warrior, so they didn't leave the city unprotected.

Still that goes against my experience. I thought the AI only moves out to attack when they have 3 units in their city or more, so I didn't even try baiting. I see now that it was a mistake.

 

[jesusin]

Yes. They built a Warrior, so they didn't leave the city unprotected.

In my game I saw the first warrior out protecting the worker and the 2 Archers in the city, so I assumed that they were city defenders that would never leave the city. I assumed wrong.

And later on I was worker-baited by Toku. I am ashamed.

 

[Ribannah]

I was intending to walk past Kyoto with my Warriors and look for easier prey first, if it didn't work. Perhaps bring a Settler along, too.

 

[oncable]

Contender start. Warrior rushed Japan, England and Monty, stealing a worker from each. Decided on water economy so built Colossus in London. 4 good food sources in London! 1250BC Huayna came calling. 650BC Oracle - Civ Service. Destroyed a barb city they had taken from Monty, no wonder Monty was so weak. Going for domination but with a few wonders. The maces easily take care of the barb swordsmen and by 500AD have Cuzco thanks to the very useful carracks. Cuzco has the Great Lighthouse so won't colonize it because I'll lose the extra trade routes. I'll have to depend on cottages to pay the extra maintenance. Economy in decent shape. Researching music to get the great artist for golden age. Will send carrack round the world to get extra movement, then head east to invade other continent. Great map! Thanks for a fun game.

 

[MarkM]

Just read Ribannah's account.

I am not worthy

 

[Gnejs]

"I don't trust you not to sneak-attack."

Like two puny archers are going to stop ME from doing precisely THAT.


There are 20+ forest tiles visible before even moving any of the units. I start out with the plan to use them all for chopping whatever units I can make, and overrun those two little archers with an avalanche of units.


That decided, I settle 1W in the only non-forest tile reachable on T0, start researching BW, and start out by building worker-worker with intent of prechopping all the forests. BW reveals that there is no copper, not that I expected it anyway.


The question is now whether I should go for Archery or IW. Archery is the sure bet, but against Toku's two protective archers on a hill (that is so cruel, DS, so cruel... ) it is going to take a lot of archers. The BTS AI seems to whip more aggressively so there might be even more defenders popping up. I decide to gamble on IW. Meanwhile, I found a second city to the W grabbing another set of forests, and also doubling my chances to discover iron inside my border. As it turns out, I need a third useless city to grab the iron.


I keep all my cities at size 1 while chopping a stack of swords. Kyoto is captured 1500 BC. Tokyo razed 1425 BC. A cease-fire to heal and replace casualties, and then redeclare and capture Osaka in 1200 BC. Tokugawa is no more. I send swords in every direction and soon find Elizabeth. London captured 900 BC, York 875 BC and Lizzie is gone too.


In the same turn an incan workboat appears at London, coming from the north. Great, another target. I send most of my swords to the north, while some scout in other directions. Funnily I don't find Huyana , but I do find Monty. He is gone in 425 BC, and I only keep the capital. I also capture a barb city on the SE coast which becomes a production monster.


Finally, after searching the whole continent, I find where Huyana is. In exactly the opposite direction from where I first started to look. But my workboat cannot reach him since there is an ocean tile in his culture that has to be passed. Or so I thought, but when reading Ribannahs spoiler this can't be the explanation? Strange...


Anyway, all in all I think I have a quite successful start. But now I make THE mistake of this game. The economy has crashed totally and I need to get back online to get to Optics. London seems perfect for spawning a couple of scientists to bulb my way there. But I research things in totally wrong order: CoL->Metal Casting->Monarchy. As a result I am severely restricted by the happiness limit for a long time. Sigh. Suffices to say that I still haven't discovered Optics at the cutoff date for this first spoiler...

 

[AluminumKnight]

And I thought my sweet warrior rush on Toku was good...

 

[Htadus]

@ Conquest Challenge players

Is it worth the effort to kill off all you nearby AI at his level so early or better to keep them around for some tech trades while you beeline toward Optic? The reason is AI, even BTS, does not build enough units to be an issue for a good stack of combined arms, you can perhaps have maces in no time.

 

[mabraham]

@ Conquest Challenge players

Is it worth the effort to kill off all you nearby AI at his level so early or better to keep them around for some tech trades while you beeline toward Optic? The reason is AI, even BTS, does not build enough units to be an issue for a good stack of combined arms, you can perhaps have maces in no time.

Well Tokugawa has to die to let you into the game in a serious way. (It will be interesting to see if anybody makes a goer of an archipelago civ to the NW of your starting position, but I doubt it will do well.) That leaves Liz, Monty and Huyana. Don't forget that an AI won't trade you a tech if it has a monopoly on it. (Possibly if you maintain Friendly it might relax, but I've never tested this one).

In my game, they were each their own religion, so getting to trade would rely on me adopting the religion of whichever one suited me, and then both that trade partner and one of the other two choosing to research the same tech at the right price and in enough time for me to trade. That's a big parlay. In the meantime, we'd have not kill off more than one of the other two (who would quickly lag behind on Noble). The low Noble AI tech rate, and the high probability of religious wars just didn't make this realistic. The alternative is killing one (or all) of them and using their land for my own purposes. Since this leads naturally to a domination win, it seemed clear.

If there was a religious monoculture, and you carefully kept all the AIs up-teched, and used espionage to see what they were researching, and adapted your research choices to maximise trading chances, then this could work. You could get to Optics first this way, and discover the other continent quickly. That would give you a further tech edge against the world, but your continent will quickly build caravels and get back on parity with you. Meantime, they've built themselves up into more of a formidable opponent. The other continent won't have done so well, so maybe you've got some targets over there now.

The thing is that the value of your UU is that you can have an early transcontinental war, but there's very limited value in having a slow and costly war at the end of a long supply chain when there's people to beat up at home. Even when successful, the cities you capture will cost you a lot. If you raze them, some of the other AIs on the continent will rebuild, and you achieve nothing, except perhaps a weak vassal AI. If your home empire is large enough to bear the cost of any overseas cities, then you're going to need some of your home AIs land. Thus, unless you're going to hack off the people at home early, you won't leverage your UU for much at all. Once you've taken one of them down, the rest might as well follow.

Keeping one of them as a vassal has some advantages. You get half the value of their population and land for domination, you get half of their score (without having to rebuild their empire), maybe they can tech something useful for you to trade for later, and you get a happiness modifier. Keeping a vassal won't help you win Conquest, however

 

[Simon_c]

@humbe:

You didn't make enough warriors in your test. Remember that Toku gets free combat I. Combine this with Fortify and the warrior's 25% city defense, and you definitely need more than 3 warriors. It looks like you needed to chop about 6 or 7 warriors to be pretty safe (I personally chopped 8 + my original, but that seemed to be overkill).

It's strange, I'm sure I rushed Toku's 1 archer with 3 of mine, but I did while the city was pop1, then founded a new city on the same spot. I didn't want to risk archers popping up there while I waited for it to grow. I guess the cultural borders were weak enough that I managed it.

 

[Simon_c]

I'm at the point in the game where I tend to lose focus and just amble along dominating the competition in a mediocre fashion...

I can really relate to that.
Does anyone have any pointers to any posts or articles on how to keep focus in this kind of situation ?

 

[blastoidstalker]

@ Conquest Challenge players

Is it worth the effort to kill off all you nearby AI at his level so early or better to keep them around for some tech trades while you beeline toward Optic? The reason is AI, even BTS, does not build enough units to be an issue for a good stack of combined arms, you can perhaps have maces in no time.

Though I was not in the conquest challenge and goingf for fast diplo. The reason I kept them around was for trade. I was focusing on leveraging the GL. Also with our cheep settlers and the other AI's so far away. It was cheeper to settler than conquer. I also settled near the AI first to box them in and then moved back to my own land and the islands.

 

[humbe]

@ Conquest Challenge players
Is it worth the effort to kill off all you nearby AI at his level so early or better to keep them around for some tech trades while you beeline toward Optic? The reason is AI, even BTS, does not build enough units to be an issue for a good stack of combined arms, you can perhaps have maces in no time.

Exactly my thoughts too.. Rushing Toku is one thing. By getting him out of the way you get a lot of nice land north of Kyoto. But at that time you have a lot of nice land to settle in without needing to war with the others. I'd assume you'd need to build up a decent economy in conquest victory too, especially since several of the AIs are on other continent, and you need a lot of troops far away from home to conquer them.

As this is noble, it's easy to outtech them. When you have built your economy up and researched what you need and are building your army for overseas conquest, finishing off the neighbours is probably fairly quickly done.

I've never tried focus on a single victory condition. I usually just go for all and see whatever happens first. Usually that means domination if I war enough or space race if I grow tired of waging war. If you go conquest/domination, do you at some point just stop researching all together and puts all resources into making troops and go?.. If so, at what point would you do that? Guess you'd need to have gotten some decent military techs and troop transports first.

 

[azzaman333]

I can really relate to that.
Does anyone have any pointers to any posts or articles on how to keep focus in this kind of situation ?

As a chronic drifter, I recommend setting targets for yourself to reach, and after you reach them re-asses the situation and set a new target. Also, make sure you have a finish in sight, and set your targets to put you closer to your finish. In the games where I do this, I tend to greatly out-perform the games I don't. (eg, in BotM 2 I set myself to pull of a Feudalism slingshot, which
I achieved, but failed to set a desired finish point in my head, and forgot to re-asses and aim for new goals after achieving the slingshot and just drifted until the AI started blitzing me in tech. This triggered me to set a goal of achieving a Religious victory which I was eventually able to achieve thanks to a little luck)