Brave New World's 9 new Civs

[The_J]

Moderator Action: Guys, back to the game please...

 

[alpha2117]

You missed my point. There is infinite diversity in every area and hundreds of ways to implement each civ. The only thing restricting it is the developers besides our historical knowledge. We have enough knowledge to make some radically different European and Mesopotamian civs and we have some.

Lets take your example of Assyria. I assume you're saying it's too much like Babylon.

Optimum strategy for Babylon is a REX strategy to grab as much land as possible after rushing for writing to get the GS and grabbing the great library and an NC. Then storm away to a science victory.

Optimum strategy for Assyria is to rush for Mathematics and iron working, take over lots of tiny cities and city states and use them to get a free tech each and potentially for more science in the long run.

They are both sciencey civs, but they play in vastly different ways. Assyria's UU and UB and both geared towards defence. Assyria's UA and UU are geared towards quite extreme early aggression. In that manner they are polar opposites. I wouldn't say they are samey, they are about as different as you can get within the confines of a science based civ.

Sumer could be so much different again, even if it was geared towards science. Tomatekh has created a really cool mod for them that generates a lot of early growth in their cities. That's a very flexible UA. Then they too have a science boost, but strapped to a temple so they become a faith/science civ.

You can have huge diversity of civs within Mesopotamia, the only limits are your imagination. You can get more disparity (in the paleo-biological sense) by including civs from elsewhere and i am amongst the biggest supporters of that. But not disparity for disparity's sake, because you can't make them any more diverse gameplay-wise than a set of civs from Europe of Mesopotamia.

I want civs that make sense to be in game. Proper, themed civs that can legitimately claim ownership over everything in their uniques. And civs that make sense. Civs that have actually been in existence as a polity. The West Indies as a civ would be worse even than including the European Union. Not only would it be a clunky agglomeration, they also are merely neighbours with no kind of political or economic union. There may be some cultural union, but even Italy isn't getting in Civ V on that basis. And finally, they may offer some unique qualities for a civ. But no more unique than anywhere else.

Assyria is design wise Babylon with a bit of the Huns thrown in. The design choices are very familiar an early game improvement (walls/siege engine) and science abilities. Obviously you are going to play the two differently but design wise they are starting to replicate themselves with those two areas. Poland is different from the other Euro civs but in many ways feels like the Mongols. each civ is different of course but the design choices are feeling samey.

I dont necessarily think civs from outside those two areas are better choices I just think civs from outside those two areas offer more choices that haven't already been used before. Take Venice - we all expect trade and culture elements because that's what makes sense for them - the problem with that is those sort of choices will be from a certain time period and that time period already has France and Portugal. I suspect we will end up with a design that makes Venice feel like a cross between those two aforementioned civs.

My problem is when I look at whats been designed for this expansion I start to see the Euro and Mesopotamian choices feeling less exciting than the choices from elsewhere merely because the choices from elsewhere have design elements that just feel fresher because they haven't been replicated elsewhere - Morocco's desert bias, Brazil's design choices like Carnival, Zulu's melee fighting bias or Indonesia's very very different design elements that will force you to play in a very different way to the way we have played before. In terms of design it really does seem like areas outside of Europe and Mesopotamian are offering more unique design choices to the devs.

I've got no problem with Sumeria, The Hittites, The Vandals, The Visigoths, Phoenicia or any other civ from earlier in history but design wise do they offer uniqueness at this point. I'd hope the devs find things that would make them feel fresh. In Assyria's case though what I see is a design where instead of Babylon's more turtle style you have a Hunnic style aggressiveness built in which encourages them to seize cities to gain the extra tech. In terms of gameplay it doesn't feel fresh to me. They are totally worthy of being a civ but in the end the design just feels like Angry Babylon to me and that doesn't excite me because I've been there and done that.

 

[boghog]

Poland is different from the other Euro civs but in many ways feels like the Mongols.

Sorry to butt in after your lengthy exchange but doesn't this sentence invalidate your point that we need geographical diversity to have design diversity. Unless you are saying that Poland and Mongolia are culturally or geographically from the same area.

 

[Option]

I'm pretty sure that Austria IS the Habsburg Empire in Civ terms? Everything represented was present during the Habsburg regime; they use the word Austria just because it is more recognizable by the layman. Compare with Siam, which is really the Sukhothai Kingdom as far as what is represented in CiV despite them using the modern name. Also contrast with Germany, which showcases components of the area's entire history.

Well in the game, it uses the Republic's symbol (the eagle is the current coat of arms). The Hapsburgs have ruled over Austria for a significant amount of time, most of its lifetime, really, but there's parts of the history of the country that have not been dominated by them; the modern Republic is one such a thing, and so is the era of the Babenbergs before the Hapsburg family rose to power in Austria.

With that said, modern day Austria is only a fraction of its territory, German Austria really, and the Austrians there referred to themselves as Germans during the monarchic times (if you call an Austrian German nowadays, you'll risk your life lol).

That's what splits Austria from Germany, though, it's the melting pot of several cultures (German, Italian, Hungarian, Slovenian, etc.), generally staying united, while the German nations were a patchwork of a map and only unified under the very loose institution of the Holy Roman Empire (which included German Austria), until Prussia rose up and started eating up most of the smaller German nations and unified them under the same flag.

In a way, the history of Germany is similar to that of Italy, as both were fractured into smaller duchies and city states and it took one local power to stand up and bring them together.

The Germans in the Civ series, how I understand it, are mostly an amalgam of the Germanic tribes, the Holy Roman Empire - through all of its time; the beginnings under Charlemagne and the fractured period - and modern era Germany, essentially representing the Germans as a whole.

But that is a stark contrast to what Austria was and represented; Austria never was a particularly German nation, despite its core lands being considered German.

 

[arik24]

TheKingOfBigOz
1. Riga has replaced Venice because it matches the type and color of Venice (A tone of cyan and Maritime CS)

2. Milan is a CS (rules out Italian Civ)

3. The two colours seem to be nearly a match of the colours seen on old flag of Venice, with the diffrence being more or less about 3-5 in a 255 (or whatever the range) RGB set.

4. Venice fits in the Alphabetical Theory (which would be hard to disprove, as both Vanill and G&K follow the rul) in the achievement listings.

5. Venice would fit in the range of new abilities of the BNW (Great Works, Trade Routes, etc)

This stronlgy points to the inclusion of Venice, not to mention the fact that someobdy has hinted us with the "serene" comment which people have cracked to possibly refer the Most Serene Empire or whatever of Venice

The thing is, It is 99%, sure, yo could be right, Firaxis could've duped us, but 99% is a high number because there's nothing to disprove of the theories the civ fanatics have found

1. so what they added Riga and it has the same type and color that venice use to have that does not mean its venice

2. they added a new city-state that also does mean venice is in

3. do people really think 2K and fraixs would be that lazy and use colors form a Wikipedia flag

4. it is a petty sound theory but keep in mind its a theory not a law however it does give us a civ in the Vs section of the Alphabet which we don't have yet

5. true it would but we just don't have enough info to confirm that

6. just because he said the words "bombshell" and "serene" in he comments does not mean it will be venice

like I said we just dont have a enough info to confirm venice wait till the end of this week or next we should be see the last two very soon I just hope people aren't getting there hopes up way to much because if turns out not to be venice all their hopes will get crushed and I could see it getting ugly in the end.

 

[boghog]

I just hope people aren't getting there hopes up way to much because if turns out not to be venice all their hopes will get crushed and I could see it getting ugly in the end.

Actually I'm afraid that it will be Venice and we will still be disappointed. With all those great ideas flying around these threads, I guess we might be in for a bit of a cold shower if Venice turns out to be just another civ with two UUs with just slightly better stats than the ones they replace and a lackluster UA that grants them a small trade advantage.

 

[Pedro P]

Oh please on the people questioning the alphabet theory.

Let's say every year you have to discover which numbers are under a box.

On the first year, once revealed, the numbers were in the following order: 1,2,3,4 and 5
On the second one, the numbers were on the following order: 1,2,3,4 and 5.

Now we are on the third, at first we had: 1,?,3,? and 5. Then it became 1,2,3,? and 5. I mean, yeah we don't truly know what is under the mysterious box, but there is a obvious pattern there. It could be a flying laser shooting donkey, but is probably just a 4.

The pattern of the achievement list is there, I'm sorry, but I don't see it being broken now. Of course we can't confirm that the civs on those spots are following the pattern, but that is probably what is happening, that is how things worked until now, there is no Civ that breaks the pattern.

Actually, all my doubts that Venice was in got vanished with the "About the new civ? We will come when the adviser answered to a question about the unannounced civs: "We will have the most serene details about them soon". I mean... When was the last time you used "most serene" in a phrase. If you say never I will not be impressed. And furthermore, he didn't say that on a random situation, he said that when asked about the two unannounced civs.

Yes, it is impossible to "confirm" Venice, only Firaxis can do that. But it is as likely as the sun rising in the east tomorrow.

 

[PerceeP927]

has San Marino been seen as a City-State yet? They are the "pro-civ", "most serene", "european" addition to this game. Venice un-confirmed kiddos.

longest lasting nation, has been fascist, communist, monarchist, and democratic throughout its history.

 

[otaman1]

Sorry to butt in after your lengthy exchange but doesn't this sentence invalidate your point that we need geographical diversity to have design diversity. Unless you are saying that Poland and Mongolia are culturally or geographically from the same area.

I don't think that's what he's trying to say. I think what he meant was that Poland and the Mongols have similar playing style in Civilization V

 

[Louis XXIV]

6. just because he said the words "bombshell" and "serene" in he comments does not mean it will be venice

Oh come on. When have you ever heard the phrase "the most serene details" before? When has anyone ever used "most serene" in a sentence? You're better off arguing he was messing with people. That's at least plausible. "It can mean anything" isn't all the plausible.

Plus, evidence can stack. Sooner or later, there are enough things piled that, although you can explain them separately, it's really hard to explain them together. It's all been consistent. The only thing that cast doubt on the hypothesis (Indonesia being the resource civ) helped support it as well (removed Italy as a likely candidate).

 

[PerceeP927]

Oh come on. When have you ever heard the phrase "the most serene details" before? When has anyone ever used "most serene" in a sentence? You're better off arguing he was messing with people. That's at least plausible. "It can mean anything" isn't all the plausible.

Plus, evidence can stack. Sooner or later, there are enough things piled that, although you can explain them separately, it's really hard to explain them together. It's all been consistent. The only thing that cast doubt on the hypothesis (Indonesia being the resource civ) helped support it as well (removed Italy as a likely candidate).

San Marino is european and most serene.

 

[ImperialChaos]

He didn't just say "serene" he said "most serene". Along with that being a name for Venice, and all of the other evidence, it's practically obvious it's the 8th civ. It's the 9th that is a toss-up.

 

[alpha2117]

Sorry to butt in after your lengthy exchange but doesn't this sentence invalidate your point that we need geographical diversity to have design diversity. Unless you are saying that Poland and Mongolia are culturally or geographically from the same area.

I'm not. If you were playing with only Euro civs then Poland feels different but design wise it has elements in common with the Mongols and the Huns. Those peoples came from Asia and dominated much of Eastern Europe and perhaps thats where the Hussars came from in historical terms. Those euro peoples from that area learned from the invading hordes and developed their own versions.

Poland doesn't feel fresh, Assyria doesn't feel fresh, Portugal feels somewhat like the Dutch and Venice is likely to feel like a combo of Portugal/Dutch and France. Partly it's because they are taking these choices from similar time periods and that leads to natural similarities. The Mesopotomaian and other early civs have things from very early in the tech tree and at a certain point you start to replicate previous choices in different combos. The European civs are in general using a certain time period for most of there choices leading to many having midgame improvements/units/buildings.

Those areas all deserve their spots but design wise I'm seeing a certain sameness creeping in. When I look at the new civs from elsewhere I'm seeing more innovative design ideas that open the game up to new and different ways to play. I'm not seeing that as much from the Euro and Meso civs. Of course with trade and tourism coming in the game will change and perhaps the Euro civs will feel fresher but right now on the surface I'm less excited about them than I am about the new non Euro civs. I just feel Colonial, African, Asian, and Nth and Sth American tribal civs offer some options that open the gameplay up in a way that more traditional civs aren't at this point. I'm not saying dont include Mesopotamian or Euro civs but if we do they should be looking for more variety of designs for instance I think if we had of got Yugoslavia under Tito from Europe that would have felt different to what we have been given from the area previously. You could have used Ideology and perhaps very different unit types from what we have been given out of Europe design wise.

 

[Louis XXIV]

San Marino is european and most serene.

If you seriously think San Marino is the last Civ, I'm not sure what to say. And it's not enough to say "I'm only saying it could be something other than Venice." For your argument to work, it has to be another one that is "Most Serene." Do you actually think it will be San Marino? If so, I am willing to bet an avatar or signature over it (the loser has to wear the avatar or have the signature of the choice of the winner). Deal?

 

[Moraiwe]

Signature or avatar as a bet? Pfft. PerceeP927 is prepared to eat all our hats if it's not Venice- you'll need to put up something a bit bigger for it to be a fair wager.

 

[PerceeP927]

If you seriously think San Marino is the last Civ, I'm not sure what to say. And it's not enough to say "I'm only saying it could be something other than Venice." For your argument to work, it has to be another one that is "Most Serene." Do you actually think it will be San Marino? If so, I am willing to bet an avatar or signature over it (the loser has to wear the avatar or have the signature of the choice of the winner). Deal?

I don't think I can have a signature yet. I do think it probably will be Venice, but I must say that San Marino rather humorously fits all of the parameters that are being used to confirm Venice.

 

[ImperialChaos]

Why would they choose San Marino over Venice?

 

[Moraiwe]

Why would they choose San Marino over Venice?

- their soccer team is currently in a higher division then Venice's
- they have pretty stamps

That's all I could come up with.

 

[WChrisMullen]

San Marino is one of the only remaining city-states in existence. It would make much more sense if it was a new CS.

 

[bite]

Now I am 95% sure that it is Venice (which I am ok with), but part of me can help but think Firaxis is trolling us some how