I think those posts with pics sum up why we should have more diversity in the game. So many possible choices with so many cool elements to choose from .... and yet we got Ven "choke" ice.
If we had 100's of choices Venice would be fine but as it is ... sigh ... no use complaining now.
Yeah, I'll agree you with that one. Personally myself I'd rather see a Silk Road civ, partly because I think it's much easier to market, what with romantic notions of caravans and trade and what not. But if the devs ever wanted to split up India (which I don't think will happen anytime soon), I think having a Tamil civ would be the best option.
Armenia does not scream Silk Road to me. Heck, it's not even on the major parts of the Silk Road running through Central Asia and the Iranian Plateau. There are plenty of potential civs that I think would be more appropriate for the Silk Road than Armenia, including the already-in Persia; others could be the Timurids, Uighurs, Khazars, Gokturks, Afghans/Durrani, Khitan, Kushans, Seljuks, etc. Armenia, while indeed a part of the Silk Road, was not a critical part of it. It doesn't conjure images of desert oases and caravans traveling through Central Asia, a key part of the Silk Road romanticism, mostly because it isn't really in the major parts of the Silk Road in the first place.
That's not to say that Armenia wasn't a part of the Silk Road nor that it doesn't deserve a place in a potential future expansion - it does, and frankly I'd prefer it over other civs in the Near East such as the Hittites or Sumerians - but I don't think the Silk Road is the best fit for Armenia. I'd rather see a civ that actually controlled the major parts of the Silk Road.
I'd love to see Armenia as a religious, cultured and/or defensive civilization. My knowledge on them is limited, but it's interesting how its culture remained so unique even with all those expansive neighbors and stuff.
But I wouldn't recognize it as a trade-oriented civilization as well.
I'd love to see Armenia as a religious, cultured and/or defensive civilization. My knowledge on them is limited, but it's interesting how its culture remained so unique even with all those expansive neighbors and stuff.
But I wouldn't recognize it as a trade-oriented civilization as well.
The issue with them is and always has been that they are basically a city state. They have a small area and a small population and historically have remained the same sort of thing for a very long time. People know I hate Venice's inclusion but in their case at least at one stage they did expand out from that core base. Armenia might be interesting culturally but in terms of civ unless you replicate Venice's non settler creation it isn't really close to representing the nature of Armenia. If they developed it as a pure one city challenge with some sort of unique victory condition that would be kind of cool though.
The issue with them is and always has been that they are basically a city state. They have a small area and a small population and historically have remained the same sort of thing for a very long time. People know I hate Venice's inclusion but in their case at least at one stage they did expand out from that core base. Armenia might be interesting culturally but in terms of civ unless you replicate Venice's non settler creation it isn't really close to representing the nature of Armenia. If they developed it as a pure one city challenge with some sort of unique victory condition that would be kind of cool though.
The issue with them is and always has been that they are basically a city state. They have a small area and a small population and historically have remained the same sort of thing for a very long time. People know I hate Venice's inclusion but in their case at least at one stage they did expand out from that core base. Armenia might be interesting culturally but in terms of civ unless you replicate Venice's non settler creation it isn't really close to representing the nature of Armenia. If they developed it as a pure one city challenge with some sort of unique victory condition that would be kind of cool though.
While PerceeP927's map depicts the height of the Armenian Empire which lasted for only the reign of one ruler, I still agree with his point. The area potentially covered by Armenia is pretty much the size of, or larger than, that covered by Venice, the Zulus, Austria, the Sumerians, Siam, and other realms throughout the Civ series. I see no problem with their inclusion on that matter.
Here'sa better map showing the growth of the ancient Armenian state:
In an effort to do something different, Im going to do more than simply post a list of suggested of Civs. Although, for the full list that I will probably eventually include, click on the following:
SpoilerFull List :
Mississippians
Haida
Kongo
Normans
Vietnam
Khmer
Israel
Sumeria
(I Still Really Want to Say Pueblo Even Though I Know it Wont Be Them)
However, I decided to spice things up a bit and use pictures.
First up: The Mississippians
Colors TBD, but this version of the Great Horned Serpent appears to be specifically associated with Cahokia and is thought to have served as a warning that you are about to enter Cahokian territory. To me, thats as close to a flag as youre likely to get.
The Mississippians are an obvious choice as possibly the most complex Native American society before Columbus.
Rest of the details below the spoiler tags.
SpoilerMississippians :
Leader: Tuskaloosa
The Mississippians themselves are very significant, but a leader is always a bit problematic. I decided to compromise and go with a known leader, just not one who ruled Cahokia. He is famous for being encountered by Cortez during his expeditions. He was obviously a very important Chief and, after being captured by the Spanish, he was still able to inspire a considerable force from the surrounding area to attempt his rescue.
His background art would look something like this:
I decided to avoid Cahokia for accuracy (since Tuskaloosa didnt live there), but Cahokia would still be the capital (because it should be).
Unique Unit: Falcon Warrior
Replaces Spearman. Can be purchased by faith and costs half as much as a spearman would cost to purchase with faith.
I wanted something associated with the Southeastern Ceremonial Cult (sometimes referred to as the Southern Death Cult) and the Falcon Warrior/Bird Man struck me as appropriate. Along with the Great Serpent, the Falcon is an important motif in their religion. It appears to have been a warlike religion.
Unique Building: Mound
Replaces walls. +1 food +1 faith in addition to defensive bonuses.
Im not entirely happy with this. For starters, I think theres a good argument that Mound-Builders should be a UA. The food and faith is light, but its a maintenance free building that stacks with Shrines and granaries, so its not too bad.
Unique Ability: TBD
Next is: The Haida
This is the modern Haida flag. Obviously, the colors would have to change, but its still pretty cool.
The Haida were a Pacific Northwest tribe. They probably arent the only one who could be considered, but they were probably the most warlike. They have been referred to as the Vikings of the Pacific Northwest, which has a nice ring to it. The Haida lived in an extremely fertile area so they were able to have a complex urban society even as a hunters and gatherers. Theyre also noteworthy for their practice of slavery, which was relatively uncommon north of the Rio Grande.
The rest is in spoiler tags
SpoilerHaida info :
Leader: Koyah
That is obviously not really Koyah. If anything, its probably based on this picture. He would have this blanket and hat as well. There are no drawings of Koyah, which makes representation a bit difficult. However, he still strikes me as the most significant Haida leader. He features prominently in histories written by fur traders. Since he had a habit of attacking them, they did not refer to him fondly (they referred to him as a little diminutive savage looking fellow). He was involved in more attacks on trading vessels than any other chief. This link has quite a few more details about his battles.
The Background would be one of these two pics that show canoes, water, pine trees, and Totem Poles. Essentially, the Canadian version of Kamehameha, plus Totem Poles.
Unique Unit: War Canoe
Here is an alternate version where the people have clothes:
Replaces Trireme. Combat bonus when attacking cities. Free Worker when a city is captured.
The ideas are obviously tentative. I wanted to represent their raiding abilities and the fact that they practiced slavery.
Unique Building: Totem Pole
Replaces Monument. +1 food in addition to the normal culture.
I was debating whether to make it two food or not. Since theyre relatively cheap and you can build them from the beginning, I thought this was appropriate. Totem Poles are strongly associated with the region. The food is because of the fertility even without agriculture.
Unique Ability: Potlach
Receive culture whenever you give a gift to a City-State or aid to a civ requested from a civ you have a Declaration of Friendship with.
Potlach was an important part of the culture of Indian tribes in this area. Essentially, its a practice of lavish gift-giving. Europeans tried to ban the practice because they considered it wasteful. I thought about just making it a CS gift-giving bonus, but I figured this would be nice to those who have long suffered by having a Civ with a DoF ask for help. Its obviously tentative either way.
SpoilerCity List :
Ninstints
Masset (Atewaas, Jaahguhl, and Kayung)
Kiusta
Kung
Yan
Hiellan
Skidegate
Cha'atl
Haina
Kaisun
Cumshewa
Skedans or Koona
Tanu
Hlk'yah GaawGa
Klinkwan
Sukkwan
Howkan
Kasaan
Tlell
Dadens
The Pueblo are a longshot, but I thought Id give my ideas and show pictures. Im borrowing far more heavily from Firaxis here (including leader art).
SpoilerPueblo Ideas :
Leader: Popé
Background would likely be something to do with a Mesa:
Unique Unit: Buffalo Dancer
I dont know much about them except that theyre associated with the Pueblo and look cool. I dont have any suggested stats.
Unique Building: Kiva
Kiva is a ceremonial building, which would likely replace the Shrine.
Unique Ability: Anasazi Cliff Dwellers
+100% defensive bonus and additional culture to cities settled next to mountains. +25% defensive bonus to all other cities.
Im borrowing from Firaxiss idea, which was a bit vague. I added the +25% defensive bonus to other cities to make the ability a little more commonly used. Firaxis also said that cities founded next to mountains would have unique city art where the city was built into the mountain, like this:
Anyway, those are my thoughts. Thought Id try to stand out from the crowd
It's noting that current research suggests that large portions of modern human population apparently have some among of Neanderthal DNA in them. In modern times as well they have tended to be called a subspecies of Homo Sapiens as well, rather than a different species of genus Homo. Another subspecies that appears in our DNA is the Denisovans.
I wouldn't get into that as it could get controversial.
That said, of course there shouldn't be Neanderthals or Denisovans, they were not Civilizations, they were subspecies of Homo Sapiens, just as we are. It would be as silly as having a "Homo Sapiens Sapiens Civilization".
to add, people often dismiss the Zulu's credibility, but aren't they in to represent an iteration of the bantu peoples? I'm sorry if that is wrong they don't teach that in school I have had to research
I think they'd go with "Nubia," which is relatively well-known (in the United States, anyway) and doesn't carry any ugly associations with genocide or civil war.
On a general note, there is reason to point out that hunter gatherer lifestyle and diet was healthier than agricultural lifestyle and agricultural diet. Hunter gatherers lived longer lives and their life was usually easier than life of those who practiced agriculture.
People started to practice agriculture out of necessity more than anything else. They started to practice it after big game started to become extinct. Agriculture just made it possible to have larger populations. People knew the basics of agriculture quite early, but decided not to practice it because it was harder way to get your food, than hunting or gathering.
I just hope, if they made a third expansion, they do not add another native american civ. We have the Iroquois and the Shoshone, and it's pretty enough.
Also, I would not mind Armenia's inclusion, but then again, it could be controversial because of X events, which I won't talk or argue about it, that happened a century ago (more or less) and that a certain government denies the existence ...
But if people truly wished a silk road civ, I'd vote for the Timurids. A lot more gruesome than your Vlad (and a thousand times more effective). Sorry to bring this again, I just cannot comprehend why people would want Romania or Wallachia ... I'd prefer even Belgium or Hungary !
And finally, if they ever had a post-colonial modern civ, I sure hope its an Argentina under Eva Peron, than a Canada or an Autralia.
1. Achievement question, there's not much to talk about them, except how peaceful both are (Canada's UA would be Sorry : "if you commit any offense to Canada, they'll instantly forgive you, and give you a luxury" ... while Australia would be A thousand ways to die : "every non-australian unit which penetrates Australia's territory instantly looses 50 hp).
2. I don't feel like playing a civ which still considers a foreign queen as their own.
to add, people often dismiss the Zulu's credibility, but aren't they in to represent an iteration of the bantu peoples? I'm sorry if that is wrong they don't teach that in school I have had to research
Not really.
The Zulu in civ are really just representing the Zulus and the other big reason they're in the game is nostalgia. A lot of people demanded the Zulu simply because they were in the Civ-series since Civ1 and so people have grown to like Shaka and his warmongering attitude.
A lot of people already expected the Zulus to be in G&K and the shock was pretty huge when the last civ turned out to be Sweden rather then the Zulu.
Personally I hope one of the late antiquity/dark ages civs could make it into a possible third expansion pack. The Visigoth, Franks or Vandals could offer some fun gameplay. Out of those three I see the Franks as the most likely due to Charlemagne, but seein Alaric or Geiseric in civ could be fun.
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