Brazil & Rain Forest Appeal

[jsurpless]

Had a question about something I read on http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Brazilian_(Civ6)

It says the following

"The Amazon ability has a hidden function, which in fact explains the bonus to Neighborhoods: Rainforests add Appeal for Brazil instead of deducting it! You can easily see this if you turn on the Appeal Lens in any game which contains Brazil as a player - their jungle regions will be full green (meaning Breathtaking Appeal), while everyone else's will be sadly gray, or even orange (Average or lower Appeal). This becomes very important towards the end of the game if Brazil is pursuing a Cultural Victory, because it will aid placement of National Parks and Seaside Resorts."

It doesn't seem to be the case that all of my jungle tiles are full green? Are they mistaken OR did something change at some point? I do see how jungle tiles (once inside Brazil's borders) have an improved appeal (+1 instead of -1)

 

[Datian]

+1 doesn't always mean breathtaking, if you built mines next to jungle...

 

[blackbutterfly]

It doesn't seem to be the case that all of my jungle tiles are full green? Are they mistaken OR did something change at some point? I do see how jungle tiles (once inside Brazil's borders) have an improved appeal (+1 instead of -1)

Also don't forget marsh often spawns with rainforest. They still give negative appeal.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I suspect it isn't reflected in the tile tooltips.

 

[Brutus2]

I suspect it isn't reflected in the tile tooltips.

I’ve been confused by this as well. The in game civlopedia says additional housing for neighborhoods but I keep seeing people say that is wrong and it actually is +1 appeal adjacent to rainforest.

I tried testing it in game and as I buy tiles the appeal improves in the tooltip for things like river, coast, woods just like any other civ but I do not see any appeal change for rainforest adjacency. If it’s not showing in the tool tip are we sure it is happening?

I don’t have a late game save for Brazil to test neighborhoods. Can anyone confirm what the correct Amazon bonus is for certain?

 

[isau]

Here's a chart showing all of Brazil's actual values:

I never thought to look before, but it seems they don't actually get +1 Housing from adjacent Rainforests at all. They would get extra Housing though, simply because Rainforest gives extra Appeal.

Note that the wording is a little confusing. Brazil actually gets +2 Appeal from Rainforests. Rainforest is naturally -1 appeal. So Brazil ends up with a net +1.

Now things can get a little weird with how this works. You get the +2 Appeal effect from Rainforest tiles you actually own. If there's an adjacent Rainforest and you don't own it, still gives you -1 Appeal. It changes over to net +1 Appeal when you acquire the tile. This can feel a little weird sometimes because Appeal affects adjacent tiles. So you might not notice a big effect until you collect a bunch of Rainforest tiles in your borders and they all boost each other due to Adjacency.

 

[Victoria]

As @isau says, it’s only tiles you own. This question pops up every now and then.
A great civ to have Earth Goddess with.

 

[isau]

Its interesting. I had never really thought through the Brazil Neighborhood thing before. I just assumed it meant "+1 Housing if adjacent to at least 1 rainforest." In fact, because what it's really doing is boosting appeal, it's +1 Housing per rainforest. Which might still cap at +6.

I do wish Appeal were more generally useful. Its weird how little it factors into Culture victories. But at least you can know your Brazilian cities are pretty.

 

[Brutus2]

As @isau says, it’s only tiles you own. This question pops up every now and then.
A great civ to have Earth Goddess with.

I understand you need to own the rainforest tile but will it then increase the appeal of all adjacent tiles by 1 or only adjacent tiles you also own?

 

[Victoria]

To clarify
Every adjacent rainforest tile you own gives +1 appeal to all adjacent tiles
Every adjacent rainforest tile you do not own gives -1 appeal to all adjacent tiles
Each mountain, river and coast adjacent edge gives +1 appeal (including here as they are valid for the diagram, there are other ones like marsh)
@Brutus2 You have to understand that you are seeing the jungle from the appeal you would get, the opposition would see it quite differently, the left 3 values outside your border to them would be -4, -6, -2 instead of -2,-2,0

White squares are the appeal value, an earth goddess dreamworld

 

[Hactar]

To clarify
Every adjacent rainforest tile you own gives +1
Every adjacent rainforest tile you own gives -1

Well that clears it right up

I assume you’re missing a word there somewhere.

 

[isau]

If you've ever played with Russia in the game with Yields visible on the map it may be easier to understand. Tundra tiles show normal yields until Russia acquires them, then have +1 production and faith. Anyone with Yields turned on will see the extra production and faith on those tiles, not just Russia players. That's because the value of the tile itself has changed.

Brazil's extra appeal works the same way. Appeal is an actual, not virtual, characteristic of a tile. The moment Brazil acquires rainforest the tile itself has +1 net appeal. While I haven't tested this, I think as a consequence Brazil's neighbors benefit from the appeal if they own a tile adjacent to a Brazilian rainforest.

 

[Cagarustus]

@isau. Thanks for this. Really helpful. Makes me want to play brazil again.

 

[Victoria]

Well that clears it right up
I assume you’re missing a word there somewhere.

Ah...more than one word, thanks.

he moment Brazil acquires rainforest the tile itself has +1 net appeal.

Incorrect if you look at my real example its +1 to adjacent tiles.
look at the elephant tile... all surrounding tiles are plains with no feature that provides appeal.
If the elephant was surrounded by normal plains it would be 0
If the elephant was surrounded by non Brazil jungle it would be -6
The elephant is surrounded by Brazil owned jungle so is +6
if your statement held true it would be +1

 

[isau]

Incorrect if you look at my real example its +1 to adjacent tiles.
look at the elephant tile... all surrounding tiles are plains with no feature that provides appeal.
If the elephant was surrounded by normal plains it would be 0
If the elephant was surrounded by non Brazil jungle it would be -6
The elephant is surrounded by Brazil owned jungle so is +6
if your statement held true it would be +1

No, it should be +6. Appeal has an effect on adjacent tiles.

There is a "hidden" base Appeal value to each tile (at least hidden as far I know, maybe some part of the UI reveals it I don't know about). This is the "real" Appeal of the tile, which Brazil's bonus effects.

There's also the value reported on screen, which is the "effective" value. This value is generated by looking at the base Appeal and taking into account the adjacent tiles.

I haven't studied Appeal adjacency very closely. My impression is just that a tile's effective Appeal is equal to it Base Appeal + - the Base Appeal of every adjacent tile. Brazil's bonus effects Base Appeal, so it's taken into account for this.

In other words, if you have a tile surrounded by 6 rainforests and all those rainforests are owned by Brazil, that tile should have sky high Appeal. If you have a tile that Brazil owns, and every adjacent tile has rainforest, and Brazil doesn't actually own the adjacent rainforest tiles, that tiles appeal will be in the gutter, because Brazil's bonus isn't boosting the base Appeal of those tiles for it to radiate outward.

 

[Victoria]

I haven't studied Appeal adjacency very closely. My impression is just that a tile's effective Appeal is equal to it Base Appeal + - the Base Appeal of every adjacent tile

A long time ago I tested it and got it slightly wrong and someone corrected me who had tested it better.
All tiles start with 0 appeal and this is then modified by adjacent tiles but not by itself.
So a jungle tile surrounded by 2 mountains, 2 rivers, a forest and a marsh ends up with an appeal of 4 not 3 as the jungle tile is not considered.

 

[isau]

A long time ago I tested it and got it slightly wrong and someone corrected me who had tested it better.
All tiles start with 0 appeal and this is then modified by adjacent tiles but not by itself.
So a jungle tile surrounded by 2 mountains, 2 rivers, a forest and a marsh ends up with an appeal of 4 not 3 as the jungle tile is not considered.

Hmm this is possibly true and would track with what I've seen from giving some tiles a huge Appeal boost in test code. You end up with a "donut" with average appeal in the middle and massive appeal in the surrounding tiles. I'll look closer next time I get a chance to run a test.

 

[NukeAJS]

Does this mean that if Brazil and another civ share a border, and that border runs straight through a large jungle, the tiles on the border of the other civ will gain Brazil's appeal bonus?

 

[isau]

Does this mean that if Brazil and another civ share a border, and that border runs straight through a large jungle, the tiles on the border of the other civ will gain Brazil's appeal bonus?

I think so. Haven't tested it though.

For sure if the other civ owns the jungle and Brazil does not, Brazil gets the negative effects of the jungle.

 

[Victoria]

Hmm this is possibly true

definately true, just gop through every tile you see with the appeal modifiers and it just works. Its also stated in the culture guide appeal section linbked in my signature.

Does this mean that if Brazil and another civ share a border, and that border runs straight through a large jungle, the tiles on the border of the other civ will gain Brazil's appeal bonus?

No, they only gain appeal for Brazil, basically to Brazilian people the jungle is appealing, to everyone else it is not. The fact that it only affects what is in their territory is a bit odd but can be rationalised.