[NFP] Breathtakingly appealing - New Bull Teddy brings a new playstyle

[WillowBrook]

Update on my no-campus Teddy Owls emperor game (standard lakes map, standard speed):

My science jumped from about 250 to about 350 pet turn when I built the Eiffel tower (with the help of Eiffel himself, no less!) last night.

It took until mid-industrial age (world) for me to gain the lead in science, but I expect to win the space race by early atomic age.

I decided to make it a no-theater square game as well, but my culture has had no trouble keeping pace with my science. My only frustration is the lack of trade city states in the game, but with all the extra trade routes from Owls (not to mention that I'm obviously spamming cities with this no-campus approach), gold is not a problem.

It's been a lot of fun to have a different sort of city planning puzzle.

 

[Casualty of war]

I like any Civ that lets me take a look at the map with fresh eyes.

 

[agonistes]

My point is that a campus adjacent to mountains can give you much more science than his ability and once you factor in natural philosophy and rationalism, in fact you get much more science than preserving these high appeal spots beyond a certain point.

I have a teddy game going. I’m disinclined to continue it because its on super marathon, and the slower the speed, the more powerful teddy becomes.

A campus ‘can’ get more science, but you have to take care. Frequently a mountainside tile nets you 2 science and 2 culture, so grabbing a campus adjacency can be a net loss until you run the right policy. A wooded hill tile would cost you food and production too.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

We're already doing that in Earth Goddess games.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

For the Appeal discussion, as far as I understand it, it's not only based on "beauty" of nearby tiles, but how much it would bring to someone near it. It's up and foremost used for neighborhood and you have to think about appeal as someone who would try to find a place to live, not to visit.

Living near a Wonder? Of course! Who wouldn't like to wake up every morning with the view of the Oracle, Petra or Chichen Itza? It's great, it's beautiful!

Living near a theater square, entertainment complex or holy site? Of course! The nearer I am from cultured and entertaining things, the better!

Living near woods! Well, a digestive walk in the forest is always nice.

But living near marshes or jungle? I mean, a lot of tourists go there, but who really like leaving near them or in the middle of them? Trekking in the jungle, why not? But except some specific adventurers, people often tend to prefer to live far from jungles and marshes. The mosquitoes, the humidity, the beasts... Woods are waaay nicer than jungles for the inhabitants. Even nowadays: if biodiversity wasn't a thing taken into consideration, we would drain each and every swamp in sight.

It's not that jungles or marshes or uindustrial zones or encampments or floodplains are ugly; it's that people living near them tend to have lower quality of life than people living near woods, natural wonders or hockey rings.

 

[Dantesedge]

I was never interested in playing America before so I’m glad they created Bull Moose (I have no interest in RR). One of the stronger cultural games I’ve ever had and the beginning was especially interesting playing with appeal. I enjoy National Park focused cultural games which is why Canada and now BM America are high on my list (I still prefer Canada).

That said I would have preferred an alternate leader, not a new persona. It just feels... off. Just my opinion.

 

[Pfeffersack]

For the Appeal discussion, as far as I understand it, it's not only based on "beauty" of nearby tiles, but how much it would bring to someone near it. It's up and foremost used for neighborhood and you have to think about appeal as someone who would try to find a place to live, not to visit.

Living near a Wonder? Of course! Who wouldn't like to wake up every morning with the view of the Oracle, Petra or Chichen Itza? It's great, it's beautiful!

Living near a theater square, entertainment complex or holy site? Of course! The nearer I am from cultured and entertaining things, the better!

Living near woods! Well, a digestive walk in the forest is always nice.

But living near marshes or jungle? I mean, a lot of tourists go there, but who really like leaving near them or in the middle of them? Trekking in the jungle, why not? But except some specific adventurers, people often tend to prefer to live far from jungles and marshes. The mosquitoes, the humidity, the beasts... Woods are waaay nicer than jungles for the inhabitants. Even nowadays: if biodiversity wasn't a thing taken into consideration, we would drain each and every swamp in sight.

It's not that jungles or marshes or uindustrial zones or encampments or floodplains are ugly; it's that people living near them tend to have lower quality of life than people living near woods, natural wonders or hockey rings.

Yes, that's absolutely correct - and because of that it is not a good idea IMO to try to squeeze in both things in one value.

 

[UWHabs]

Yes, that's absolutely correct - and because of that it is not a good idea IMO to try to squeeze in both things in one value.

I think it's close enough to mix that it makes some sense to combine them. The caveats I would have is that I think once you hit conservation, marsh+jungle should at least be net neutral, maybe even positive appeal. Maybe still a notch below a regular old growth forest, but should still not be negatives. I just finished a Bull Moose game and my late game was full of ripping up jungles to plant normal forests, which didn't really feel right while trying to play a "conservationist" type game.

 

[Pfeffersack]

I think it's close enough to mix that it makes some sense to combine them. The caveats I would have is that I think once you hit conservation, marsh+jungle should at least be net neutral, maybe even positive appeal. Maybe still a notch below a regular old growth forest, but should still not be negatives. I just finished a Bull Moose game and my late game was full of ripping up jungles to plant normal forests, which didn't really feel right while trying to play a "conservationist" type game.

+1...if the "one value"-approach, then this.

 

[kb27787]

With the reduced cost of naturalists and earth goddess providing oodles of faith.... BM Teddy is extremely broken now. He gets to conservation really quickly without that many theatres of great works just from the tile yields. One thing you will have to get used to is to build lumbermills instead of mines.

If he can find a good source of food and housing (getting feed the world from the AI is handy), he has plenty of crazy tiles for his citizens to work.

 

[NukeAJS]

Didn't read the entire thread but let's not forget that entertainment and theater districts give +1 appeal to all nearby tiles. In addition, putting those two districts next to each other gives a major adjacency bonus to theater districts. Lastly, making a three-tile pyramid consisting of a theater district, entertainment district, and coliseum will give a nice adjacency bonus to the theater and basically make tons of breathtaking tiles.

Oh, and holy sites and water parks also give +1 appeal. Water tiles that have a natural wonder CAN be used to make national parks. While it's fairly rare for ocean natural wonders to position themselves in such a way -- lake natural wonders are quite easy. Ha Long Bay is a good example of an ocean wonder that can often be exploited with a national park.

So, regarding chopping forests: you can still chop forests and then replace it with a holy site, entertainment district, theater, or world wonder and be right back to where you were as far as appeal goes. It's not necessarily a either-or decision. You can mitigate the penalty with (even more) careful city planning.

 

[Deadly Dog]

The whole + appeal for woods and - appeal for rainforest is a gross generalization of the real world. The woods I'm familiar with, boreal forests, are miserable with mosquitoes and blackflies in the spring, and near the tree line the trees are stunted and scraggly, and winters are extremely frigid. Meanwhile there are rainforests in coastal areas of the Americas both temperate and tropical that are devastatingly beautiful.

I think its good we'll have the Biosphere wonder now to offer a chance to make an all-rainforest park. I would love it if in future civ could add more terrain types, like boreal vs temperate woods, and temperate vs tropical rainforest.

BTW anyone get Grenada in their BM Teddy game yet? I got lucky met them early had Alcazars giving +4/+4 culture and science in the classical age

 

[UWHabs]

Didn't read the entire thread but let's not forget that entertainment and theater districts give +1 appeal to all nearby tiles. In addition, putting those two districts next to each other gives a major adjacency bonus to theater districts. Lastly, making a three-tile pyramid consisting of a theater district, entertainment district, and coliseum will give a nice adjacency bonus to the theater and basically make tons of breathtaking tiles.

Oh, and holy sites and water parks also give +1 appeal. Water tiles that have a natural wonder CAN be used to make national parks. While it's fairly rare for ocean natural wonders to position themselves in such a way -- lake natural wonders are quite easy. Ha Long Bay is a good example of an ocean wonder that can often be exploited with a national park.

So, regarding chopping forests: you can still chop forests and then replace it with a holy site, entertainment district, theater, or world wonder and be right back to where you were as far as appeal goes. It's not necessarily a either-or decision. You can mitigate the penalty with (even more) careful city planning.

Yeah, that was some of the fun of playing. The other careful game to play is where to station Reyna and her Forestry Management. I had a lovely tile of Spices on a volcano that I desperately wanted to keep at +4, but it was only naturally +3, so I basically had to keep moving and swapping Reyna around to make sure I had an unchopped forest next to that tile to grant it its appeal bonus.

I was also lucky in the game to have Nazca, as Nazca Lines give +1 appeal to neighbouring tiles (and Granada too, which obviously plays very well into an appeal game too). So many times I would have like a mine tile, but want to remove it to get a neighbour up to +4, or basically put a holy site in the middle of a field so that all the tiles around it would get the +1 appeal bonus.

 

[Victoria]

Playing a game ATM, I got a suzerain really early..... it was Rapa Nui, only other CS close I have 2 envoys in and it is... Granada. Does the AI suddenly have a sense of humour?

Spoiler :

 

[AriochIV]

I see what you mean. Here Washington has three National Parks, and Reyna adds gold to the unimproved tiles.