Sarevok
Civ3 Scenario Creator
beleive me, i was furious when the hebrews/Israeli's werent put in.
Bring in the Hebrews
- Thread starter rozman
- Start date
ok guys. even though i would love nothing more than to prove most of your naive political ideas wrong. however this is a civ3 conquests forum so lets keep the discussion to the game, and the history surrounding it. I think creating either an ancient "Torah Guard" or a modern bonus infantry (highly motivated soldiers) would do just fine.
Hebews is how the Jews were called back then, alongside Phonecians and Babylonians. Now they are the People of Israel as they were after the exodus. So any name would do just fine.
I believe the starting point should be around 1500 BC in the sinai or arabic desert. with a few established cities of the original mesopatamia nations.
Hebews is how the Jews were called back then, alongside Phonecians and Babylonians. Now they are the People of Israel as they were after the exodus. So any name would do just fine.
I believe the starting point should be around 1500 BC in the sinai or arabic desert. with a few established cities of the original mesopatamia nations.
benstandby
Radio Host
Ancient
The maccabee should be a swordsman replacement that requires no iron. Straight 3.2.1 but no iron. This simulates their ability to stand up to larger, better-equipped armies of Alexander's Greeks, Rome, Assyria, Babylon, and Persia.
Modern
I would go with their UU as a Jet fighter replacement much like the F-15. Make it one square shorter range than the F-15 or Jet fighter (the Israeli modified F-15 is more effective at shorter ranges than the US F-15) and only 80 instead of 100 shields (the military aid that they recieve from the US). 8/4 (4/5/2)
You could also make their UU a cheaper Mechanized Infantry (manditory conscription).
The maccabee should be a swordsman replacement that requires no iron. Straight 3.2.1 but no iron. This simulates their ability to stand up to larger, better-equipped armies of Alexander's Greeks, Rome, Assyria, Babylon, and Persia.
Modern
I would go with their UU as a Jet fighter replacement much like the F-15. Make it one square shorter range than the F-15 or Jet fighter (the Israeli modified F-15 is more effective at shorter ranges than the US F-15) and only 80 instead of 100 shields (the military aid that they recieve from the US). 8/4 (4/5/2)
You could also make their UU a cheaper Mechanized Infantry (manditory conscription).
Gabryel Karolin
Gammelgädda
Hebrews had an empire? Is that a fact or just taken from religious texts? 
I might be ignorant but are David and Salomon even acknowledged as actual historical persons?
I might be ignorant but are David and Salomon even acknowledged as actual historical persons?
Masquerouge
Deity
Well, yes. They both existed. Now they didn't do all that is in the Bible, but they were great leaders alright.
And the Hebrews were a force to be reckoned with, back in BC. Then again, not everything went as told in the Bible.
Always cross-check your sources
And the Hebrews were a force to be reckoned with, back in BC. Then again, not everything went as told in the Bible.
Always cross-check your sources
2 million dwellers?
give me a break, Rome at its ancient height only had one million, and Alexandria hovered at about the same leval, there si NO way that a city in the middel of what was by all means an ancient back water, who often depended on state provided grain could get 2 million people- hell, i would be surprised if ancient jerusalem at its HEIGHT had over 20,000 people.
and why weren t the Hebrews included- becuase the "hebrews" refers to s specifice entity, not a nationality, at best it could be "Isralite", but I still doubt they would be adopted into the game- because of simple lack of action, as it never did a great deal in its region- it developed the idea of montheism (or at least adopted it from Akhnaton of Egypt, though a religion is not the best criteria for greatness, considering all the strife that seems to go over them (and the fact that the old polytheistic relgions never deid off I might add, monotheistic religions were just forced down to many people throats)
Gabryel Karolin
Gammelgädda
That stance wont make you popular amongs historians anymore, most would agree that Akhenatons experiment had no influence on the Hebrew cosmology
.Do you have any texts to refer to when you make that claim? I dont doubt your statement, its just Ive always thought they were just fictional legends, or atleast their deeds so extremely exaggerated that it didnt matter anyways.
Gogf
Indescribable
I am also Jewish, and I think that being called a "Hebrew" is offensive. Now, back to the topic of units: you could have a modern Israel, with a Galile infantry, or Uzi infantry, or you could have a Macabee (which should definately be invisible, because it was like an ancient geurilla, and geurilla should be invisible. How else did the Macabees win the war with te Greeks? By knowing the terrain better). Any Macabee art?
Let's not debate religion right now. If you want my mod, you can download it, once I can get Macabee art. So, GIVE ME YOUR MACABEE ART!!!!!!, and maybe it will get into the mod!
Let's not debate religion right now. If you want my mod, you can download it, once I can get Macabee art. So, GIVE ME YOUR MACABEE ART!!!!!!, and maybe it will get into the mod!
Emperor Xerxes
Custom User Title? NEVER!
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2003
- Messages
- 570
I too am in Manchester, and I walked all the way into the city centre last Friday just in case they had it. But they didn't. I guess I shall go again this Friday. And if they don't have it I think people here know what I am going to do.
After the death of Alexander the Great, the region of Palestine (including Judea) was ruled for a time by the Ptolemies before being seized by the Seleucid Antiochus III around 200 BC. Later, when the Romans defeated Antiochus and imposed a heavy tribute, he refilled his coffers by imposing heavy taxes on the Judeans. After Antiochus IV (Epihanes) succeeded his father in 175 BC, he arranged for the assassination of the Judaean High Priest Onias III (who was suspected of collaboration with the Ptolemies) and installed Onias' brother Jason, who supported Hellenestic culture in Judea. Jason, however, fell out of favor and was deposed in 172 AD to be replaced by the High Priest Menelaus.
In 171 AD, Antiochus IV lead an army through Palestine to attack the Seleucids in Egypt. With Antiochus so preoccupied, Jason recruited allies among the anti-Hellenistic Hasidim and led them into Jerusalem, where they threw the High Priest Menelaus into prison, expelled the Seleucid garrison and set about systematically killing Jason's rivals. His "reign of terror" was short-lived, for Antiochus and his army returned from Egypt, threw down the walls of Jerusalem, restored Menelaus, and placed a new garrison in the city. At this junction, Antiochus apparently decided to unify his empire by imposing Hellenistic culture throughout. In 168 AD, he erected a statute of Zeus in the temple in Jerusalem and desecrated the altar by building a Greek altar on top and sacrificing a sow. He then summoned the Judeans of Palestine to Jerusalem to perform sacrifices to Zeus to demonstrate their loyalty. Those who refused were killed; while others fled to join the priest Mattathias Hasmon of Modein, along with his five sons, who had resisted Antiochus by killing the bearer of the summons. Mattathias lead his followers into the Gophna Hills, where he formed them into a guerrilla army and launched a successful raid to Jerusalem to overthrow the Greek altar.
Mattathias thereafter fell ill and died, and his son Judas Maccabaeus emerged as the head of the resistance in 167 BC, along with his brothers Eleazor, John, Jonathan and Simon. Under Judas, the "Maccabeans" fought a running series of battles with the Seleucids including Nahal el-Haramiah (166 BC), Beth Horon (165 BC), Emmaus (165 BC), Beth Zur (164 BC), Beth Zacariah (162 BC), and Elasa (161 BC). Although buoyed by his alliance with Rome in 165 BC, the tide began to turn against Judas when Antiochus V Eupator assumed the Seleucid throne in 164 AD. At Beth Zacariah, Judas' brother Eleazar cut his way through the Seleucid host to kill the elephant that he supposed carried Antiochus V, only to have it crush him in the process. Facing an army of "fifty thousand footmen, and five thousand horsemen, and fourscore elephants," Judas fought on until his loses were too heavy and then retired to Gophna, leaving Antiochus to briefly occupy Jerusalem before winter compelled his return to Syria. Then in 161 AD, Judah defeated a Seleucid army dispatched by Demetrius I Soter under the command of the general Nicanor. The same year, however, Judas was brought to bay by a second Seleucid army commanded by Bacchides and forced to give battle with only 800 men; despite their desperate valor they were defeated and Judas was slain.
Jonathan, the brother of Judas, made his peace with the Seleucids, who recognized his title as High Priest of Judea in 152 AD, a position to which the Hasmon lineage was not considered eligible since they traced their descent from the line of Levi and not David. In 150 AD, Jonathan backed the successful claim of Alexander I Balas to the Seleucid throne, and later found himself forced to provide auxiliaries to Antiochus VI Epiphanes who assumed the throne in 145 AD. Not as militarily successful as Judas, Jonathan did lead an expedition that ended at the gates of Damascus, but primarily devoted himself to political intrigues and alliances with Rome and Sparta. In 143 BC, he supported Antiochus against the usurper Trypho (Diodotus Tryphon), but fell into Trypho's clutches and was made prisoner. When the Seleucid usurper invaded Judea in 142 BC, he was defeated by Simon but got his revenge by putting the prisoner Jonathan to death.
Thus Simon, the last of the sons of Mattahias, came to power. Simon lead a campaign against the Seleucid usurper Trypho, seizing Gazara, Joppa and Jamnia before joining Demetrius and his army in the seige of Dora where Trypho was slain. Rather than reward his powerful ally, Antiochus VI sent an army under Cendebeus to subdue Simon. The Jewish Historian Josephus records: "yet he, though he was now in years, conducted the war as if he were a much younger man. He also sent his sons with a band of strong men against Antiochus, while he took part of the army himself with him, and fell upon him from another quarter. He also laid a great many men in ambush in many places of the mountains, and was superior in all his attacks upon them; and when he had been conqueror after so glorious a manner, he was made high priest, and also freed the Jews from the dominion of the Macedonians, after one hundred and seventy years of the empire [of Seleucus]."
The Seleucids formally recognized Judean independence in 142 AD, and in 141 AD, Simon and his army expelled the last Seleucid garrison from Jerusalem. Simon ruled until he was assassinated in 134 AD by an ambitious son-in-law.
His son, John Hyrcanus survived the attempted coup and assumed the dual role of High Priest and King, only to face an invasion by Antiochus, which he was able buy-off with a tribute of 3000 talents taken from the sepulcher of David. Using that same source of funding, Hyrcanus then built a large army, hiring numerous foreign auxiliaries, and lead them into Syria where he subdued and forceably converted the Idumeans to Judiasm, and overran the cities of Medaba, Samea, Shechem, Gerizzim, Adoreon and Marissa. He set his sons to beseige Samaria, where they defeated a relieving force sent by Antiochus and pursued it as far as Scythopolis before returning to complete the seige. Thereafter, they returned to Scythopolis, forcing Antiochus to shelter behind its walls while they laid waste to the heart of the Seleucid kingdom. The victory secured Hyrcanus, who ruled Judea until his death in 105 BC
this was not written by me
One last thing that i want to say as far this thread is to pay attention not to make it a political one.Every one is free to propone ideas for CIVILIZATION3,but do not make fanatical.I repeat THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL THREAD OR SITE,thats wy i think that we must not start declaring our political views,every one has a different one.History is what it is either we like it or not.
Masquerouge
Deity
Yes, the Bible.
...
Just kidding. Actually it's from historical magazines, but since they're in french I doubt it will be of much use to you. Now I'm sure an internet search will provide you with all the answers you need. The only rule you need : don't believe anything you read on the Net
anarres
anarchist revolutionary
Well, I know very little about history, but I do know that it isn't just a set of facts that can be refered to. Several interpretations of ancient events can exist, and you can't just tell people to shut up if they disagree with your point of view.
FWIW there are history and 'off-topic' fora here at CFC and you can discuss history and politics in those fora at your will. Go to the main forum page to find them.
When something relates to Civ3 (such as whether nation 'X' should be included) then history certainly can come in to play. If this thread was not along the lines of "I think X should be in and Y should not" then you could argue the history side-debate was meaningless, but since the thread started has chosen to say exactly that it is fair for people to question the validity of it.
Finally: no-one ever has the right to 'bash' nations/cultures/etc at CFC. Even in the history and off-topic fora you have to justify your opinions and not deliberately wind people up. In this thread though I don't see any antagonism. The debate is interesting and people have valid points on both sides...
Enkidu Warrior
Ultramagnetic
Originally posted by Emperor Xerxes
I too am in Manchester, and I walked all the way into the city centre last Friday just in case they had it. But they didn't. I guess I shall go again this Friday. And if they don't have it I think people here know what I am going to do.
Your post saved me a trip into central Manchester (I checked the game store that I live above and they didn't have it) so thanks for that.
Back on topic, while I think that not including a Hebrew/Jewish/(whatever you want to call it) civilization purely out of political correctness would be a great shame, I would say that any civ included should avoid modelling itself on the modern Israeli state, because there are genuine negative issues that should be avoided. Modelling it on an ancient Hebrew culture would be more sensible.
Quite frankly, some of the comments appearing on this thread if anything justify the designers decision not to include a Jewish civ, which is in itself a great shame. There are a great many people who have problems with the modern Israeli state, Jews among them, so don't just lump all these people together with Islamic extremists.
It has to be said that the Hebrew culture has a wealth of history to draw upon, and there is certainly plenty of potential for a great civ without necessarily modelling it on any one nation or soceity in history.
Apologies for dipping into politics, and since the Jewish members of the board can't seem to agree on which term is best to use I apologize if you find the term Hebrew or Jew offensive. To my mind using the term Hebrew simply allows you to describe a very general cultural identity without referring to a particular period of history, so if you know a more suitable term just replace it in your mind.
anarres
anarchist revolutionary
Sorry if you misunderstood me. I didn't mean you personally, I meant "one" - but that sounds stupid. I was actually trying to make a more of a general statement about politics and history in this forum, but I failed. Next time I will scan my posts before I hit 'submit reply'...
Ringo
Chieftain
I don't know how hard this would be to customize, but it would be interesting if there was a way to replace the citizens of a conquered city with citizens of your own civilization.
I'm not interested in politicizing the thread, I'm just thinking about tactics and game rules. If this is too uncomfortable for most members here, I won't post about it again.
Is it possible to script in rules specific to the conquering of a city?
Tank Replacement:
Bulldozer
15/5/2, requires Oil, Rubber
Shield Cost: 100
Special: If unit conquers a city, the following happens:
- Population size is reduced by 1/2, or becomes 6 if previous size was greater than 12.
- All remaining citizens are replaced by new citizens from conquering civilization
The unit stats are weak compared to the tank, but would eliminate in-city resistance and change the dynamics that usually go along with foreign nationals, cultural conversion, and citizen happiness during a war.
- r
I'm not interested in politicizing the thread, I'm just thinking about tactics and game rules. If this is too uncomfortable for most members here, I won't post about it again.
Is it possible to script in rules specific to the conquering of a city?
Tank Replacement:
Bulldozer
15/5/2, requires Oil, Rubber
Shield Cost: 100
Special: If unit conquers a city, the following happens:
- Population size is reduced by 1/2, or becomes 6 if previous size was greater than 12.
- All remaining citizens are replaced by new citizens from conquering civilization
The unit stats are weak compared to the tank, but would eliminate in-city resistance and change the dynamics that usually go along with foreign nationals, cultural conversion, and citizen happiness during a war.
- r
[color=600f0f]And did anyone report this thread for its Off Topic political discussions and spam? When I went to bed 8 hrs ago no one had. And most of the worst was posted before then. I know some historical discussion is necessary in a thread like this, but ...[/color]
Moderator Action: General Warning - Keep this discussion on the game, or I will be forced to close it.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
BTW, Solomon was a real king. He helped make Israel strong. He made an alliance with the Phoenicians, who supplied wood for the temple in Jerusalem (The wood was from the Cedars in Lebanon, in case you were wondering why those specific trees are a landmark). I think I remembered hearing that, although successful, his actions weren't always popular. After his reign, the kingdom split into Israel and Judah (based in Jerusalem).
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