[BtS] DIPLOMACY: a mod for Diplogames!

[AbsintheRed]

Alright then, the recent changes based on comments (these are the additional bonuses to the original building/unit which they replace):
Mossad: +3xp for spies, +10% espionage
Maccabee: free City Raider I promotion - I like this better than the Guerilla, more useful, and the Gallic Warrior already has that
University of Science: +5% science, +1 culture, +1 scientist slot
Longhouse: 100 cost, -10% maintenance
Hunlun Hunlu: +2xp for mounted, +1 culture
Salon: +2 artist slots, +3 culture
Praetorian: bonuses same, but 40 cost and 7 strength - made them slightly cheaper
Quecha: +50% vs archery
Ballista Elephant: targets mounted first in combat outside cities, +25% vs archery
Gallic Warrior: free Guerilla I promotion, +25% gold from pillaging


A new thread with subthreads: I second that in every level, would be greatly useful!
Keep this one here and make the new one in the Civ4 - Project & Mod Development, there we can have all the subforums we want. Like all the other big mods.

Right now we also need one for UU and UB balancing, and one for traits.
What the new traits should be, what combos should certain leaders have, have all the combinations, etc.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I would like to resurrect two older discussions, one is the UB for Polynesia, the other is the UU for the Huns. Probably it's time to decide.

For Polynesia, I really think that something naval would suit them better. Some cool bonus to a lighthouse UB to represent their sailing culture. There are already several colosseum replacements
(and still many coming in the modpacks), and only 1 lighthouse. Here is our earlier discussion
The bonuses could be 2 of these 3: -10% maintenance, +1 culture, +2xp for naval units

For the Huns, I didn't find the earlier comments. There were many things pro and contra Tarkan as a War Elephant replacement.
I think it would make the whole civ much more unique. IIRC Capo's biggest problem was that he did not wanted any mounted unit without neither horse nor ivory requirement.
But till then I realized the Camel Archer requires neither of them in the vanilla game, so that's not a problem anymore
Bonuses: 2 movement and no ivory req of course, less bonus vs mounted but some extra bonus agaisnt melee

One last thing, Huszar Cavalry for Hungary is much closer to Cavalry than Cuirassier. We should change that, I have no idea why that spread in many mods to be a Cuirassier replacement :S

 

[The Capo]

The reason I use the Huszar as the Cuirassier replacement is because they originated in the Medieval-era and had primacy starting in the renaissance, which is the era the Cuirassier is supposed to start in. So to sum up, because I think they should be around before Cavalry. Not to mention I have better graphics this way.

I don't want to revisit the Hun UU, it has been decided. And remember, the Camel Archer is being changed to the Ansar Warrior, so it will now require a Horse resource. My biggest problem wasn't that it wouldn't require a resource, my biggest problem was that if I got rid of their Elephant unit, and replaced it with a Horse unit, if they didn't have horses they'd be screwed because they couldn't build elephants either.

I'm willing to change Polynesia's UB.

As for traits, like I said before I'm still on the fence about changing them or adding new ones, and right now I'm leaning towards not adding any. Although the other day I was leaning towards adding some. This discussion could be for after the next playtest though. Right now the main discussions should be about the UU/UBs, and what to do about the Serfdom civic.

 

[The Capo]

Damn it! I just realized I deleted all the Inquisitor art I made. This is really pissing me off because that took me FOREVER to do.

EDIT: So, I guess what I'll do now is start making some original Inquisitor units, this will give me some good unit-making practice anyway, and I might need it for future mod-packs. So I think what I'll wind up doing is putting out the next playtest without Inquisitors, which will delay the mod a couple weeks, but I think it is better to delay it rather than rush it. So once Bakuel's Iberians are done and the unit upgrade is finished I'll send out the playtest. Hopefully within that time The_J comes up with something for the Flavian Amphitheatre. On the plus side, this gives us a little time to figure out the UU/UB balancing.

EDIT 2: Also, if you want to help out a bit with the Inquisitors I could use some ideas. I have concepts in mind for all of them except for the Baalism inquisitor and the Jewish inquisitor, so if you want to find something that would work that'd be helpful. Here is what I have so far for the Islamic Inquisitor, basically it is going to look like the Islamic Missionary, with a different robe, and this hat.

 

[cybrxkhan]

What ideas do you have for the Asian religions? I may be able to help out, since I'm, er, Asian.

 

[AbsintheRed]

The reason I use the Huszar as the Cuirassier replacement is because they originated in the Medieval-era and had primacy starting in the renaissance, which is the era the Cuirassier is supposed to start in. So to sum up, because I think they should be around before Cavalry. Not to mention I have better graphics this way.

Alright, I still think the Huszars are early Cavalry not late Cuirassier, but I guess it won't be that bad this way either. One thing though: if it stays this way,
at least don't make them weaker than original Cuirassier. Right now they only have 11 stregth

I don't want to revisit the Hun UU, it has been decided. And remember, the Camel Archer is being changed to the Ansar Warrior, so it will now require a Horse resource. My biggest problem wasn't that it wouldn't require a resource, my biggest problem was that if I got rid of their Elephant unit, and replaced it with a Horse unit, if they didn't have horses they'd be screwed because they couldn't build elephants either.

Oh, sry then, I didn't remember that. If there is an Ansar Warrior, then there are no other mounted UUs without any resource, so one of your concerns still stand.
One small comment that the Huns won't be screwed that way, because they could build Tarkans without any resource.
But if you already decided to go with Knight replacement, then my only suggestion is to come up with a more unique and hunnish bonus for them.
Btw, what bonuses do you plan for Ansar Warrior?

I'm willing to change Polynesia's UB.

Alright then we should find a cool name for that. I think any two of the bonuses I wrote in my previous comment are perfect for a Polynesian lighthouse UB

 

[The Capo]

I'm not totally sure what I am going to do for the Ansar Warrior just yet, they reportedly used a vast array of weaponry though, so I was thinking of giving them a different bonus against each unit type (not not extreme, and it would have to be tested for balance). Of course that could be discussed, which would be helpful since I am working on these Inquisitors.

And speaking of Inquisitors, so far four of them are confirmed and two are in the works (I can't get the texture to show up on the Hinud and Islamic ones for some reason). Here's a preview pic:

As far as the planned asian ones. The Buddhist and Confucian ones I am happy with, which leaves Taoism and Shinto. I'm not entirely sure what I'm going to do but here are the general concepts I have in mind right now:

SHINTO

TAOISM

The general goal being to make them look different from their missionary counterpart (well as much as possible while keeping them realistic), I also want to make them look cool/professional too so there are some limitations there. For whatever reason I have yet been able to master the art of unit-making. But I'll try my best, and I suppose this will be good practice. For the Druid I'll probably go with a cloaked inquisitor, the Olympian Inquisitor will probably look like that statue of Augustus dressed like a priest, so a toga and a hood, the Anunnaki will just look like a Mesopotamian priest but different than the missionary, the Shamanistic one will have a headdress on but will have a lot of "war-paint" on, the Voodoo one will just look like a witch-doctor, the Teotl inquisitor will be loosely based on the priest from Apocolyptico or whatever that movie was called. If I am missing any other ones sorry but I got ideas for all of them except the Jewish and Baalism ones.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Ok then my suggestions for Ansar Warrior (I assume it's a replacement for knights):
Requires: horse, iron, horseback riding, guilds and archery
Stats: 90 cost, 10 strength, 2 moves
Bonuses: +1-2 FS (to represent their skills with javelins and bows), +25% vs melee (to represent their infantry style fighting in battles).
They don't really need bonus against archery units, and I think bonus against mounted don't suits them well.


EDIT: I have an idea for Tarkan too. Give them free Leadership promotion instead of Blitz. Maybe it's a long shot, but the name is a title of nobility after all

BTW I really like the inquisitors you posted above! All six looks good
Maybe the buddhist is a little tall and thin compared to the other ones, but it's not bad

EDIT2: Just saw your next post. Shinto looks awesome!!!

 

[The Capo]

Ok then my suggestions for Ansar Warrior (I assume it's a replacement for knights):
Requires: horse, iron, horseback riding, guilds and archery
Stats: 90 cost, 10 strength, 2 moves
Bonuses: +1-2 FS (to represent their skills with javelins and bows), +25% vs melee (to represent their infantry style fighting in battles).
They don't really need bonus against archery units, and I think bonus against mounted don't suits them well.

That's good with me. Anyway here's a preview of the Taoist and Shinto Inquisitors. I'd like feedback on them because, to be honest, I don't know much about Eastern religions. Keep in mind I probably won't be able to get them to look exactly like they should, this should probably be kept in mind for every inquisitor actually. The first priority is that they look cool and different enough to distinguish them from the missionary.

EDIT: I also added a preview of what I came up with for the Jewish Inquisitor, which I based on an old Hebrew High Priest. I don't know though, it kinda doesn't look completely like I imagined it, but what do you guys think? (sorry about the quality of the example pic, but you get the idea)

 

[cybrxkhan]

They all look pretty cool and ripe for nicking.

My only thoughts at the moment are that the Taoist Inquisitor looks too "colorful". In a way he kind of looks more Persian than Taoist. Just my personal opinion, of course.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I like the Jewish very much. No need for more work with him
I'm not sure though, if every religion gets an inquisitor, then how will the process of purging a religion go?
Also, do you like my idea for Tarkan?

 

[The Capo]

I like the Jewish very much. No need for more work with him

Alright, I'm a little bit of a perfectionist, so I'll probably do a little bit more to it.

I'm not sure though, if every religion gets an inquisitor, then how will the process of purging a religion go?

I'm not sure what you mean. If you build a Jewish Inquisitor and have Shamanism in your city, you use the Jewish Inquisitor to take Shamanism out of the city.

Also, do you like my idea for Tarkan?

I like that idea, I did notice that when I played with the Tarkan with blitz it was pretty devestating though. You don't like the blitz promo? I could switch to your idea, but I thought it was pretty cool with the blitz promo myself.

 

[MadmanOfALeader]

My idea of a Jewish inquisitor would be like a Pharisee from the Bible. Definitely sounds like an Inquisitor to me!

 

[AbsintheRed]

Alright, I'm a little bit of a perfectionist, so I'll probably do a little bit more to it.

Hehe, never a problem

I'm not sure what you mean. If you build a Jewish Inquisitor and have Shamanism in your city, you use the Jewish Inquisitor to take Shamanism out of the city.

I just mean that what if a city has many religions? It just leaves the inquisitors religion in that city?
Probably it's not a good idea to be able to purge state religions, so this way there can be some issues if you use a non-state religion's inquisitor...
Or it pickes and purges one religion randomly / you are able to choose one (of course not the inquisitors religion)?
Maybe it just leaves the state religion and purges everyone else?

I like that idea, I did notice that when I played with the Tarkan with blitz it was pretty devestating though. You don't like the blitz promo? I could switch to your idea, but I thought it was pretty cool with the blitz promo myself.

Oh I like the Blitz promo very much. But you added that to Frankish Paladins too, and I don't like same bonuses to the same class.

 

[The Capo]

My idea of a Jewish inquisitor would be like a Pharisee from the Bible. Definitely sounds like an Inquisitor to me!

Well, I'm not sure what they looked like really. I did an image search and got a bunch of different pictures of one. It looks to me like they basically look like the current Jewish missionary unit though.

I just mean that what if a city has many religions? It just leaves the inquisitors religion in that city?
Probably it's not a good idea to be able to purge state religions, so this way there can be some issues if you use a non-state religion's inquisitor...
Or it pickes and purges one religion randomly / you are able to choose one (of course not the inquisitors religion)?
Maybe it just leaves the state religion and purges everyone else?

Well, I don't know why you would purge your state religion, but your state religion has to be present in a city in order to purge religions, and I don't think you can purge your state religion, i.e. I think you can only use inquisitors for your state religion. So if you are Christian you couldn't use a Druid Inquisitor.

Oh I like the Blitz promo very much. But you added that to Frankish Paladins too, and I don't like same bonuses to the same class.

Alright, well we can give one leadership and one blitz. Which one do you think should have leadership and which one should have blitz? I think that blitz fits the Tarkan better than it fits the Paladin. I think leadership makes sense for both, so maybe the Paladin should get leadership and the Tarkan blitz?

 

[The Almighty dF]

Well, I'm not sure what they looked like really. I did an image search and got a bunch of different pictures of one. It looks to me like they basically look like the current Jewish missionary unit though.



Well, I don't know why you would purge your state religion, but your state religion has to be present in a city in order to purge religions, and I don't think you can purge your state religion, i.e. I think you can only use inquisitors for your state religion. So if you are Christian you couldn't use a Druid Inquisitor.



Alright, well we can give one leadership and one blitz. Which one do you think should have leadership and which one should have blitz? I think that blitz fits the Tarkan better than it fits the Paladin. I think leadership makes sense for both, so maybe the Paladin should get leadership and the Tarkan blitz?

I vote for leadership for Paladins and blitz for Tarkan.

 

[Xyth]

Completely agree Diplomacy II deserves a subforum. That way conversation threads won't get lost.

My thoughts on Polynesia (being part Maori and effectively living there):

In my mind it would be much preferable to change the UU to a maritime focus than the UB. We really don't have a particular building in our culture that has a maritime focus. In my mind there are 2 good options for a Polynesian UB: the Wharenui/Marae and the Pa.

Marae as a Colosseum replacement makes zero sense. A Marae is not a single building but rather a collection of fenced structures representing the political and spiritual centre of a community. The Wharenui (literally: big house) is the main building in a Marae and is carved and dedicated to the legends and ancestors of that iwi (tribe). Here's some pics:

The UB could be called a Marae or a Wharenui (Falenui in Samoan) depending on what graphics could be found/created. Really, the perfect building it could replace would be the Palace but I do not know if that's feasible/possible. Barracks, Lighthouse, Courthouse or even Library (centre of oral rather than written tradition) could work though. Whichever is chosen it should definitely give a bonus to culture and maybe experience to naval units as well.

The other option is the Pa, which is a hillside fortification involving significant earthworks and palisades. They were extremely effective in warfare even against musket armed troops. The largest Pa known was at Ruapekapeka and despite being outnumbered and out-armed it's occupants were only captured because the British broke a truce saying neither side would fight on a Sunday during prayers. Pa are uniquely Maori though, as far as I know they were not used elsewhere in Polynesia.

I also think that the UU for Polynesia should be changed to the Waka (Polynesian canoe). 'Koa' is simply the Hawaiian word for warrior, it is 'Toa' in Maori and Samoan, but the appearance of the current unit is uniquely Hawaiian and in my opinion doesn't represent the entirety of Polynesia very well. The Waka is found throughout Polynesia and obviously fits the maritime theme perfectly. There is a model in the database but unfortunately it is the wrong shape. Maybe it could be stretched in Blender and more oars/sails added? Waka taua (war canoes) were very long, were usually without sails, and could hold 80 or more warriors:

Ocean going waka had outriggers or were double hulled and obviously relied more on sail than oars:

Waka are very significant culturally to Polynesia too, for example every Maori iwi traces it's ancestry back to which waka they arrived in Aotearoa (NZ) on. I'm pretty sure Samoa and elsewhere have similar traditions too.

 

[The Capo]

Thanks for the feedback Xyth. Here are the problems though, as I see them. I am fine with making the name better on the UB (honestly I just copied the UU and UB from the VD module), the reason the Colosseum replacement was appealing to me was because there aren't many Colosseum replacements. I would be willing to change it to a Castle replacement (i.e. the Pa) though and give it a culture boost and maybe an earlier trigger-tech. The other concern there is graphics.

As for the UU; I am more familiar with Hawaiian culture than pan-Polynesian culture (weird terminology I know) and the button and graphics were nice so I went with Koa. I'd be willing to do a Waka Taua UU, which would replace the Trireme and could carry units, this way you could make safer overseas invasions. The only thing I have to say to this is that, in my opinion and I think that of most others, maritime UUs tend to be a bit weak, especially a Trireme UU. I could make it a Caravel replacement, but what would its unique bonus be? Carrying regular units would just make it a Carrack. So those are the issues there, as I said before I am always amenable to changing anything, including my mind, but as usual there are reasons for the way things are in my mod. Sometime the reasons suck, but there are usually reasons.

So in sum; I am willing to change both the UU and UB for Polynesia, but I need good and useful stats and good and useful graphics. If you'd like to put up a request in the unit request thread for a Waka Taua, or a different type of Waka, be my guest. I ask you to do it since you probably would have a better grasp as to what it should look like.

 

[Vortilex]

I'm not sure what you mean. If you build a Jewish Inquisitor and have Shamanism in your city, you use the Jewish Inquisitor to take Shamanism out of the city.

So, you can only build the Jewish Inquisitor if your state religion is Judaism? I don't quite understand how that'll work...

 

[The Capo]

So, you can only build the Jewish Inquisitor if your state religion is Judaism? I don't quite understand how that'll work...

What do you mean?

You have to have Judaism as your state religion, have Judaism in the city, and have a Jewish Holy Office in your city in order to build a Jewish inquisitor. These inquisitors don't purge their own religions, they purge other religions. A Jewish inquisitor, for example, does NOT purge Judaism.