[BtS MOD] Wolfshanze 1850-1920 Enhancement Mod v2.0

[Wolfshanze]

Any game (or mod) design decision, which gives the player a strategic opportunity (in this case, the airforce as a weapon) which has no counters, is a poor design decision.

Talk about missing the obvious... there IS a counter... it's called AN AIR FORCE... which the AI will and does make. I have even gone to lengths to make sure the AI will research Flight more then it has in the past.

Just because you don't like the counter, doesn't mean there isn't one. The counter is there, it just flies in the sky and requires oil... because you want it to require no resources and sit on the ground so you and/or the AI doesn't need to be bothered with making an air force doesn't mean the counter isn't there.

For the record... in ancient and medieval times... I have deprived the AI of all it's iron and copper resources to great effect in wars... either you have resources or you don't... it's clear you don't want any resources in the game... to me, that's a bigger gameplay change then what I have done. The fact you think it's okay to require resources in the early game but not the late game is not my problem. It is what it is... there is a counter, it's an Air Force and it's going to require Oil... to me, no differant then axeman requiring copper, swordsmen requiring iron or ironclads requiring coal... why oil should be considered free and available to all nations and units, I have no idea where you get off thinking oil is free.

 

[Wodan]

This is touching, to me, the question of: Is Civ a re-enactment of technology as it happened on Earth, or as it could have happened.

The main reason aircraft diesel engines were not successful even as early as WWI, for example, was the easy availability of petroleum-based fuels. It was simply the path of least resistance.

In an alternate history where oil is not available, which is what we're talking about, you betcha they would have made diesel engines work.

And yes, diesel engines can run off of vegetable oils.

Wodan

 

[Wolfshanze]

Folks are welcome to change my mod all they want on their own end... oil can easily be removed as a requirement... I hardly think I went out of line by requiring WWI aircraft to need oil, just like default Civ4 requires of it's FIRST flying unit through the jet age (and for those that didn't notice, you get flight at the exact same time in either default Civ4 or the Wolfshanze mod... the ONLY thing I changed in flight was the weakening of the first air units from WWII equivelants to WWI equivalants... if anything, I delay the effective use of airpower, not the immediate domination there-of).

If you want to make fighters require vegetable-oil based diesel fuel, be my guest... just make sure "Wheat" is a requirement for WWI fighters!

On an unrelated note (well, maybe not)...

Does ANYBODY know how to make a regular combat unit that is totally unbuildable? In other words, I want to create a unit that nobody can build, but could be gifted with the first to discover a certain tech... it might even make Ninja happy... but I don't know how to do this in XML... is this possible, and if-so, how?

Oops... nevermind... just got my answer... set cost to "-1" and it can't be bought... cool, this will make Ninja happy.

 

[Xenomorph]

Oops... nevermind... just got my answer... set cost to "-1" and it can't be bought... cool, this will make Ninja happy.

I was gonna suggest making it require a tech that you can't get, but your idea works better.

 

[manooly]

Are there any other changes in the mod besides the new units? Are there more buildings or civic changes or changes to the tech tree? Just curious.

Thanks!

-manooly

 

[Wolfshanze]

Are there any other changes in the mod besides the new units? Are there more buildings or civic changes or changes to the tech tree? Just curious.

No building changes at all... no civic changes... ONE TECH ADDED... "Air Superiority" is the ONLY tech that has been added... "Flight" from original Civ4 now allows for WWI Biplane Fighters and Bombers... "Air Superiority" allows for WWII Fighters, Light Bombers and Bombers... "Advanced Flight" still allows the jet aircraft units.

Mostly new units added (a lot of ships filling gaps) and a total "Flavor" package... some other minor changes, but nothing too dramatic.

 

[Ninja2]

Does ANYBODY know how to make a regular combat unit that is totally unbuildable? In other words, I want to create a unit that nobody can build, but could be gifted with the first to discover a certain tech... it might even make Ninja happy... but I don't know how to do this in XML... is this possible, and if-so, how?

Oops... nevermind... just got my answer... set cost to "-1" and it can't be bought... cool, this will make Ninja happy.

Whatwhatwhat??? What are you up to now?

 

[GeneralMatt]

I know the discussion is all but over, but Wolfshanze, what we are saying is that if you added even an extremely weak early AA in, you could keep all the fighters on oil, no problem. The issue is #1 what you do until you can procure oil or #2 what the human, with his much better reasoning and being able to target oils supplies can do to the AI by targeting his oil. It is really an "all or nothing" situation at the moment. Right now, if you do not have oil, you cannot build tanks, though thankfully there is a AT infantry. It is not the best solution, but if you lose your oil supply, you can combat their tanks. Unfortunately it is different with the aircraft. I am NOT, I repeat NOT trying to eliminate the air aspect.
If you add a Cheap AA (Interception maybe %10) and maybe 10 power, it would only be used in a situation were you cannot build aircraft as aircraft are so much better, useful, and just all around better.
I do really enjoy this mod, but it is always better when you have a counter, even a very soft counter, to everything. And this would make more sense than removing the need for oil from earlier planes.
Basically a light AA would stop an airforce from totally "owning" your stack of Infantry that are trying to go capture that oil from your enemy so you can build airplanes. A Light AA unit would definitely not be able to defeat a well managed airforce, it would just act as a deterrent and add a new strategic depth.

 

[Kilroywashere]

Changing the requirements for aircraft is the wrong way to go about the lack of oil situation, and we all know that Wolf isn't gonna add an AA unit. But In real life, Coal can be Pyrocracked into Oil.

It's rather simple really; coal, shale and other fossil fuels are put into a device known as a 'cracking tower' which is basically a giant vertical tube and is heated. The Coal 'melts' and the hydrocarbons inside start breaking up into smaller hydrocarbons like Kerosene, Jet fuel and most relevant Petroleum. Because of these distillates have different densities they 'float' to different levels in the cracking tower were it can be removed by a faucet on the side of the tower. It's high school chemistry.

I know you'd have to change from not having added new buildings, but a Refinery building, could be added. The Refinery could, say, provide +25% production with oil and +1 pollution, but it's major ability is to provide Oil with Coal.

As for realism, Synthetic Oil was used by Germany during WW2 to fuel their armored divisions, and Japan to fuel there navy in those Pre-war years.

 

[Tlalynet]

As a first comment, the random map generation spawns a LOT of oil, usually more than coppper and iron combined. Typically there is more oil on the map than civs left at that point of the game, and it's spread out so if you want to target their oilfeilds you have to plan it prety well. As for biodeisel ect, I think thats what Standard Ethanol represents, though that particular Corp would be much more usefull if it was foundable earlier.
I guess it's a non issue for be because if I see I have no oil (which is rare) I think, teck Assembaly line and Infantry invade. The AI usually has Oil too, but if you're fighing a small or backwards nation they might not.

Many Thanks again to Wolf. I was playing a Marathon game, in the last two wars I gradually built up a stack of 30-50 light bombers (very nice units) with accompanying carriers. One war was a wash because the AI didnt have flight, but that wasnt the AI's fault, it was Kahn, we had roughly 300 turns of on and off war previously, I couldnt beat his masses of troops but I blockaded every port and razed a few key cities, before he fell my EP said he was 160 turns to developing flight.

The next war was started by the strongest AI while I was tecking to Jets. His fleet hit 2 coastal cities extremly hard, it was a devistating blow. In addition to roughly 30 ships he had a dozen carriers loaded with fighters and lite bombers. His carrier stack only had four defending ships ranging from dreadnaughts to one ironclad battleship (I saw that a LOT that war, WWI and WWII fighters mixed, every ship from mighty Battleships to a couple leftover frigate, he didnt upgrade well) I targeted his carrier stack and took down his air, effectivly securing air superiority in my continent. My land stack was slighly weaker than his invasion force, but they landed and kept the AI at bay in its captured cities, all the while being pounded mercelessly by my light bombers with no hope of defence. Eventually my slighly smaller but complelely modren navy prevailed over his large mixed navy, and they secured the ocean between us, preventing re-enforcements for his Stack of Doom, and in a few turns the air power weakened and killed enough to liberate my cities. By then I was upgrading to Jets and moved in with a counteroffensive. Much to my dismay, he tecked rocketry while I was going overseas, I expeceted to see SAM missile infantry everywhere and consiquenly lose my mighy airforce in a matter of turns. When 5, 10, 15 turns passed and I didnt see one, I thought I was going crazy, I was sure the AI spammed them, instead what I was seeing was a huge amoung of fighters being built and massive in air combat, it was amazing. My far contient kept churning out planes to replace the losses, (and I did lose a lot of planes) but there was enough hitting and enough getting through that they where still key players in the attack plan.
Thank you for moving SAM's back to Satalites, thank you very much.

A big thing that bugs me with SAM's, that I just realized this game, SAM missile infantry are totaly non-commital in their anti air attack. Unless they are specifically being targeted its a no risk situation. Whenever a Jet fighter goes up, even on defence, its probably going to get damadged, and you might never see it again. Air combat that way works like real combat. But SAM's are totaly invulerable when they defend the skies, I don't imagine that is at all realistic, if you're going to fire at a plane you're going to have to get in their line of fire no? If I lose a Jet to a Jet it seems like it was a good dogfight and a fair loss, when I lose them to SAM's it just irritates me.

Now for one of those 1000 annoying suggestions you get:
How about renaming Air Superiority Advanced Flgiht, and renaming Advanced Flight Jet Propulsion? Current Advanced flight gives you the Jet engine, and current Air Superiority advances on basic principles of flight.
I guess Gunships dont apply to the Jet catagory. Oh well, thanks for the mod!

 

[Kilroywashere]

Tlalynet, what were the details of that game? (Like Marathon, Noble, Perfectworld, Large map, 24 civs (which is what I usually play at) I keep having my airforce support my navy because the islands in Perfect world are too far apart.

 

[Wolfshanze]

I know the discussion is all but over, but Wolfshanze, what we are saying is that if you added even an extremely weak early AA in, you could keep all the fighters on oil, no problem.

Before we get started on this wrap-up, let's clear the air on a couple of things that guys may get confused on...

A) Everyone seems to think I quadrupled the ability of airpower over default Civ4... aside from a minor change in Light Bombers and Jet Strike Fighters (total kill option), I've actually weakened what airpower can do early-on in the modern age.

B) Airships have been nerfed considerably in the Wolfshanze Mod... instead of "just Physics" and nothing else (as-in default Civ4), Airships now require not-only Physics, but also "COMBUSTION" and "OIL". Since I consider most of the complaints about Airships are the AI's abundant glee in pestering the human non-stop with Airships and no counter provided in default Civ4, I would think you would all be handing me the Medal of Honor for doing what I have to Airships... instead, I get complaints!

C) In default Civ4, the tech "FLIGHT" gives you airpower... the airpower it gives you is WWII aircraft... in the Wolfshanze Mod... "FLIGHT" gives you much weaker WWI aircraft... more teching, including a brand new tech that wasn't there before (Air Superiority), has to be researched before you can get WWII-level fighters and bombers... the Wolfshanze Mod actually DELAYS the arrival of devestating air power over what it is in Default Civ4.

D) I must remind all of you... you are asking me to ADD an AAA unit to the game... once again, this is something that isn't even in default Civ4... yet you all complain it's me leaving you with no counter (we'll get to that later)... funny, but if anyone left you with no counter, it's Firaxis, not me... outside of my change to Light Bombers and Jet Fighters, everything I've done actually slows-down the race to airpower. WWII-level aircraft is when my changes start to take effect, and I've considerably delayed when you get to that level over default Civ4.

Now let's move on...

The issue is #1 what you do until you can procure oil or #2 what the human, with his much better reasoning and being able to target oils supplies can do to the AI by targeting his oil. It is really an "all or nothing" situation at the moment. Right now, if you do not have oil, you cannot build tanks, though thankfully there is a AT infantry. It is not the best solution, but if you lose your oil supply, you can combat their tanks.

#1) Hmmm... if you're getting pelted from the air and have no oil, sounds to me like you're both behind the AI in teching (Combustion allows Airships and reveals oil), and/or didn't bother making procuring an oil source something important to do. I'd still research for Flight, just like you used to have to, to get a counter to Airships. This is no-differant then default Civ4, and-in-fact, a quicker/easier fix for the human player then it was in default Civ4 since I delayed/restricted the appearance of airships considerably, and the counter to airships has ALWAYS been flight... I just made the differance between airships and flight a lot shorter then it used to be (yet still folks complain).

#2) The human can also target his copper, horses & iron in the early game and completely F-with the AI in everything from Ancient times to Medieval times... how is targetting oil in the modern age any differant then targetting horses, copper or iron in earlier times? I've found completely screwing the AI in earlier times much easier, since empires are not nearly as large, and usually they only have one or two strategic resources in their empire, and with it's much smaller size, is usually quite easy to reach... if you are just realizing nerfing the oil supply in modern times might mess with the AI, you completely missed the boat on what you can do to the AI in ancient and medieval times with horses, iron and copper... you guys are just now catching on? This has been available in default Civ4 for some time, yet I get blamed for allowing this to occur?

Get real folks... nerfing the AI with resources is not anything new or something I introduced... it's always been there in default Civ4... you guys are just slow figuring it out! You all need to think more deviously if I have to point these things out to you!

I do really enjoy this mod, but it is always better when you have a counter, even a very soft counter, to everything.

For the umpteenth-millionth time... THERE IS A COUNTER... it's called a "Fighter" (or "Early Fighter"). Not my fault people can't realize that the fighter is the counter.

And this would make more sense than removing the need for oil from earlier planes.

Make sense to who? People who failed Science class? Last time I checked, no warring nation flew planes without an oil supply... this includes WWI biplanes... there's never been a nation that went to war in the 20th century without oil (or a war strictly to get more of it). I'm not sure what they're teaching in science classes these days, but 'back in my day', combustion engines in fighters required oil byproducts (most importantly, gasoline/petrol). That's what we were all taught... if that's changed, and they stuffed wheat into biplane combustion engines, please tell me.

Basically a light AA would stop an airforce from totally "owning" your stack of Infantry that are trying to go capture that oil from your enemy so you can build airplanes.

If you are just figuring-out you need oil after your opponents all have oil, combustion engines, flight and bombers ruling the skies... newsflash...

YOU MISSED THE BOAT ON THAT ONE!!!

After you lose your current game, next game, try securing a source of oil in the industrial age before it's required... my mod is not designed to cover for poor planning and a lack of forward thinking...

Believe it or not... you can get a source of oil long before your opponent is reigning bombs on your head (unless he's well ahead of you in techs, then once again, that's not my problem, you deserve to lose).

Changing the requirements for aircraft is the wrong way to go about the lack of oil situation, and we all know that Wolf isn't gonna add an AA unit. But In real life, Coal can be Pyrocracked into Oil.

It's rather simple really; coal, shale and other fossil fuels are put into a device known as a 'cracking tower' which is basically a giant vertical tube and is heated... etc, etc, etc...

As for realism, Synthetic Oil was used by Germany during WW2 to fuel their armored divisions, and Japan to fuel there navy in those Pre-war years.

Yes... Germany spent a considerable amount of money to synthisize fuel... very correct on that... I also hope you know how expensive it is, how much energy is spent to manufacture sythesized fuel (more then you get back), and how much (in volume) you get for all that effort... (next to nothing).

Germany spent a TON of money to do this, and built a lot of infrastructure to do so... I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but to paraphrase, Germany's synthetic industry (which was pretty advanced) maybe accounted for 5% of Germany's total oil needs during the war (and I'm probably being generous).

When the allies switched targets from factories (which they had been bombing all war long for years) to oil centers like Poelesti, Germany's war industry was put on it's knees in months-flat... their synthetic capacity (which had tons of money thrown at it) never came close to covering the needs of wartime Germany... they desperately needed important oil from outside Germany... the Spring '42 offensive in Russia was largely targetted to secure the Caucus oil fields (a war for oil).

Also, speaking of Japan, let's realize one of the main (and I do mean MAJOR) reason's Japan went to war in the first place was because the US cut-off oil shipments to Japan (and their synthetic industry couldn't cover anything either)... Japan DESPERATELY needed a source of REAL oil... that lay in the Dutch East Indies, and knowing the west would go to war over it, they attacked the US and Britain while targetting the Dutch East Indies oil fields as their main goal... because without oil, Japan could not survive (gee... yet ANOTHER war for oil).

All you guys whining, moaning and complaing about "why do we need oil to wage war" really need to crack-open a history book... you don't wage war without oil in the 20th century... my mod is no differant.

'Nuff said!

 

[Tlalynet]

Marathon, Monarch, Hemisphires 3 standard continets with tiny islands, large (which is much smaller than the perfectworld large) default 7 civs, playing as the Mali.
Those ultrahuge ultra#ofCivsgames sound like a lot of fun but I want to get more consistant on my diffuculty before I try it, I've only had 5 marathon games so far and am just getting used to it.

It spawned 4 main continets and 2 minor continents, and a dozen or so 1-4 tile islands. I early killed (Axmen) the other AI on my contenent then I settled a minor continent (4 well spaced cities) and was VERY lucky becasue the Tech leader was on an ajacent close continent by himself. He got Physics and Communism and Bio before my riffles slaughtered his knights and muskets (I set the world back a good 100 years by killing him). I leveredged the two continents to catch up in teck before Gengis and his whole massive continent to himself (He killed off everyone else on it, duh) declared on me and spammed massive massive armies agaisnt me. I used Ironclads against his SOTL, he had at least 30 SOTL and 30 Galleon, I had to use my circumnav bonus to totaly box in his fleet to prevent it landing. I spammed on Pyramids\Spiritual to flip between Police State (-WW) and Universal Suffrage (Cash Rush) for the next 200 turns (WW was INSANE, 2500 by the end, got 2 peace treaties but they didnt last more than 15 turns each) I created Russia as a colony from his cities as the war progressed, and Saladin got a teck lead with his vassal, Churhill.

Anyway, the vast majority of my Air force was Sea Based, I only had 8 bombers the entire game, and they where in reserve to be re-based once I established myself on the other continent. Jet Bombers where 2 tiles off of being able to hit cross continent in my last war, I think Stelths couldve though. I see bombers as being for a continental war, and not so good overseas, in an overseas war my first priority is secure the air, then secure the ocean, then move in. To that end there is no too far apart, carriers and supercarriers will bridge the gap for me.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Tlaynet... sounds like you had a very fun/interesting game... glad you enjoy the mod... now on to your request/question.

Now for one of those 1000 annoying suggestions you get:
How about renaming Air Superiority Advanced Flgiht, and renaming Advanced Flight Jet Propulsion? Current Advanced flight gives you the Jet engine, and current Air Superiority advances on basic principles of flight.
I guess Gunships dont apply to the Jet catagory. Oh well, thanks for the mod!

I like the term "Air Superiority"... because it's not a specific technical advancement, so much as it is a comprehension/epiphany as to how to use airpower.

Flight is a technical breakthrough... like Gunpowder...

Air Superiority is a philosphical breakthrough... like... well, like Philosophy...

What Air Superiority releases is not something specific like a more powerful engine, but a series of understanding combined warfare elements and use of airpower. Long range strategic bombing, the differances in tactical and strategic bombing, air/ground coordination, use of paratroopers, etc, etc... these are all things unlocked with Air Superiority... it's a breakthrough in knowledge and understanding, not a specific advancement like "Jet Engines" or something... I like the naming how it is, because "Air Superiority" is so much more then just an advancement in aircraft... it's understanding how to use airpower in many ways (tactical, strategic, naval, paratroopers, combined arms, etc, etc).

I learned all this "Air Superiority" stuff during my 20 years in the Air Force... might as well use it for something!

Read up on Billy Mitchell folks... good reading!

 

[arstal]

I still would like to see Dale's combat-style air missions added, or some variant- to represent carpet bombing, then precision bombing. Would give strategic bombers a bit more use. Also a chance to take a population point away with bombing from bombers. (I overall agree with you on the air power thing) (Honestly- that and opportunity fire are the only things I like about the Merged Mod)

You are fixing one of my complains about Civ- which is that airpower seems a lot less effective then what I heard about in reality (I was weather, so our only interaction with the planes was telling the pilots that they couldn't fly into the thunderstorms)

I think an anti-tank/air siege gun similar to the machine gun would be a nice addition as well. At the very least, it's a realistic weapon that would make it harder for the human to just Tank roll someone (I ended up tank rolling in my last game- which was kinda excessive- only started losing tanks when the last AI teched to infantry) The El Alamein 88's weren't a one-time deal were they?

 

[Tlalynet]

I like the term "Air Superiority"... because it's not a specific technical advancement, so much as it is a comprehension/epiphany as to how to use airpower.

Air Superiority is a philosphical breakthrough... like... well, like Philosophy...

Great, now I know what I'm reserching and it makes sense to me in game. Thank you.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Great, now I know what I'm reserching and it makes sense to me in game. Thank you.

Glad to be of service... I did a full description in the Civilopedia... feel free to check it in-game!

 

[Pendragon65]

just played a game out teched everybody no coal no oil but infantry & cannons, oil & coal just across borders i had plenty of money built battlegroups saw the 1st airship, in we go now got oil & coal bought myself shiny Airforce & Navy. Moral if cheap Triple AA available i would not have Airforce or navy i would of hid away waiting for something to happen. Oil should force you to react, To do something. leave things as it is, we wanted planes with teeth lets not take their teeth away again. Cheers lads

 

[Wodan]

As a first comment, the random map generation spawns a LOT of oil, usually more than coppper and iron combined.

That depends on the mapscript, and, what, there are several hundred mapscripts out there by now.

B) Airships have been nerfed considerably in the Wolfshanze Mod... instead of "just Physics" and nothing else (as-in default Civ4), Airships now require not-only Physics, but also "COMBUSTION" and "OIL". Since I consider most of the complaints about Airships are the AI's abundant glee in pestering the human non-stop with Airships and no counter provided in default Civ4, I would think you would all be handing me the Medal of Honor for doing what I have to Airships... instead, I get complaints!

I think you're confusing (1) people "just talking" (2) brainstorming and (3) differences of opinion with complaints. You opened the door to the topic and the concept of making air power not only more realistic, but more fun. So, everybody's tossing in their two cents. That doesn't mean they're complaining. In fact, I've seen more outright compliments than anything which could be construed as negative.

Wodan

 

[GeneralMatt]

Exactly, I am just brainstorming, that is why I don't mind saying I might be wrong.

Make sense to who? People who failed Science class? Last time I checked, no warring nation flew planes without an oil supply... this includes WWI biplanes... there's never been a nation that went to war in the 20th century without oil (or a war strictly to get more of it). I'm not sure what they're teaching in science classes these days, but 'back in my day', combustion engines in fighters required oil byproducts (most importantly, gasoline/petrol). That's what we were all taught... if that's changed, and they stuffed wheat into biplane combustion engines, please tell me.

Exactly, thanks for agreeing! Having a light AA that can only scare enemy planes away make a huge amount of more sense than not having to have oil for your fighters. That was what I was saying..