[BtS MOD] Wolfshanze 1850-1920 Enhancement Mod v2.0

[Catan_Settler]

Wolfshanze I believe you are missing the point. People aren't complaining about how awful the mod is, nor are they accusing you of rigging the game somehow for the AI and flight. There is no need to try and lecture people about copper and iron and basic resource denial strategies, that indeed your audience is clearly, 100% fully aware of, based on the exact reason for their posts. It might be an idea to take a step back and stop taking this discussion as a personal attack... Because it simply isn't. It's a discussion of one negative consequence of the many great changes you have made to the game with your mod...

Irregardless of the fact that you take the ridiculous view that we are all just idiots trying to fight an air war from the ground, the way it is setup know is very conducive to frustrating gameplay for people playing from a tech deficit (ie: higher difficulties), and also for overly simple and therefore boring gameplay, for those of us who have the omgwherewithall to beeline flight, cut off the AI's oil, and then essentially walk all over them with absolutely no chance of losing the war. The point is not that we all want to hide on the ground without air force, HELL NO! People downloading your mod want MORE INVOLVED, MORE REALISTIC modern combat, not a single one of us wants to "hide on the ground and ignore air power" as you arrogantly proclaim. We are trying to help you improve the mod to close off one nagging issue with it. It IS a real issue otherwise there wouldn't be so many people posting about it. We're not posting to try and piss you off. We would love this mod since it is so well done, to continue on and improve. But, with the way you rant and carry on like some kind of angry profressor who thinks all of his pupils are imbeciles, I'm willing to bet somebody else IS going to just mod it in themselves, and take a bunch of your playerbase with them to their new mod. Which would be a shame, but then again... It seems like you'd prefer it that way, which IS a shame.

 

[Kilroywashere]

Yes... Germany spent a considerable amount of money to synthisize fuel... very correct on that...

I didn't say that it was a long term solution, maybe a quick fix. And I do agree that this is the reason that both Japan and Germany went to war, but shouldn't that also be a reason to fight for oil? and if you had a small, costly supply of oil, you would definately want a cheaper source, and you would have the ability to.

To represent the costly-ness(?) of Synthesizing Oil, how about making the (theoretical) refinery building 1) cost ALOT to build and 2) cause -100% gold in the city its built in until an alternate source of oil is aquired. Also, I am *not* implying your gonna make a refinery building, but I personally think that it might solve this problem.

Incidentally, I am playing a game right now (24 civs perfectworld large noble Hirohito) in which I have neither coal or oil in or near my cultural borders, and I am fighting like hell to get some before combustion.

 

[Wolfshanze]

It might be an idea to take a step back and stop taking this discussion as a personal attack... Irregardless of the fact that you take the ridiculous view that we are all just idiots trying to fight an air war from the ground... not a single one of us wants to "hide on the ground and ignore air power" as you arrogantly proclaim. We are trying to help you improve the mod to close off one nagging issue with it.... We're not posting to try and piss you off. We would love this mod since it is so well done, to continue on and improve. But, with the way you rant and carry on like some kind of angry profressor who thinks all of his pupils are imbeciles, I'm willing to bet somebody else IS going to just mod it in themselves, and take a bunch of your playerbase with them to their new mod. Which would be a shame, but then again... It seems like you'd prefer it that way, which IS a shame.

1) I'm not pissed, I explain my reasons... how you take my explanations, I really don't care, I'm a straight-shooter.

2) Believe it or not... I don't make a single dollar from this mod... if everyone who played Civ4, plays my mod, I won't make a penny... if NOBODY who plays Civ4 uses my mod, I still won't make a penny, or lack there-of... I really don't care if my mod is the #1 mod on the forum, or the least-ever used.

3) This mod I created for ME to have fun with... I just happen to share it with others who share my vision. If nobody shares my vision of Civ4, it's not going to hurt my feelings.

4) I have done nothing-more then explain why I do the things I do with this mod... default Civ4 has never had AA units (before computer-SPAM'd SAM Infantry)... I didn't add 2,000 air units, and I have in-fact delayed effective use of air units by introducing weaker WWI units at the same time default Civ4 introduces WWII fighters.

5) Guys... this has really gotten old... I have explained in multiple posts the direction I'm going with my vision... and what this mod is to me... yet folks still don't get it... they expect me to change my vision or... heaven forbid... I might not have the most popular mod anymore... oh oh... I didn't do this for a popularity contest guys... I just did it for me (call me greedy, but I'm from the "me" generation).

6) This is sad... all over a stupid AA unit that even default Civ4 doesn't have, I'm getting badgered endlessly about this ridiculous unit. Now it's become "add it, or we'll go elsewhere"... you know what? Fine... please go elsewhere. My mod isn't a popularity contest.

7) Please go play Ninja's Merged Mod instead of the Wolfshanze mod... it has all my stuff in there, it adds the single AA unit everyone on the face of the earth (except me) demands in Civ4... and, I believe Ninja is stuffing wheat into the engines of his Zeppelins... that should make everyone happy!

Really guys... I'm not mad, or pissed or whatever you seem to think I am... I just say what's on my mind... I'm way too old to get upset about a gaming forum.

 

[Pendragon65]

This is getting a bit silly WW1 airships attacked UK SE coastal towns & london There was no Counter to them we just had to suck it up, they even thought of deploying elements of the Grand Fleet to try & counter them over their flight path. Somebody though came up with a Bright idea FIGHTER PLANES Incendry bullets. No TripleA worked, sounds familiar to a certain mod i know. As for oil Ask the Jerries what they needed in the Ardennes in 44, Synthetic to expensive and not enough true even today. cheers

 

[Pendragon65]

PS. The first ever Naval Air raids from carriers where launched by the Royal Navy at the Zeppelin sheds to try and stop the buggers from launching as the only way of stopping them, the raids failed.

 

[Wolfshanze]

As for oil Ask the Jerries what they needed in the Ardennes in 44

Even better... ask the Jerries how well their AAA prevented the Allies from bombing German cities when the German Luftwaffe was grounded from lack of oil.

I don't think the AAA worked as well as advertised in saving German cities.

 

[Pendragon65]

Yeah but i was thinking more of lack of fuel + Allied CAS = very dead heavy armour still your point is more striking

 

[arstal]

I'm trying to think of the best realistic scenario. Airpower does work like you say, but there was some risk to the pilots from ground-based AA.

One idea I have- why not up one of the more useless buildings in the game?

Give the bunker an interception capability, or aid a flak gun to towns that can intercept air units (like a 10% or 20% shot per airstrike). I don't think AA units were used on offensives much, and this wouldn't stop the bleeding, just slow it down without massive luck. Renaming the bunker to civil air defense and combining the effects might work as well.

That said if you do that, I want WWII bombers to be able to take pop points and destroy buildings at random, and for Laser to enable precision bombing.
Has there been any thought to adding those in?

I think the anger over things (which I don't share, I understand where you are going, I just think the truth is somewhere 90% you, and 10% everyone else) is because a lot of people

a) share your vision in most areas
b) not just this one
c) Vastly underestimate the effectiveness of airpower, even in WWII.

 

[Wolfshanze]

I think the anger over things (which I don't share, I understand where you are going, I just think the truth is somewhere 90% you, and 10% everyone else) is because a lot of people

a) share your vision in most areas
b) not just this one
c) Vastly underestimate the effectiveness of airpower, even in WWII.

I think there's a "d" too...

d) Vastly overestimate the effectiveness of AAA in protecting Civs without an air force.

History has proven again, and again and again that you can't avoid getting nailed badly from the skies if all you have is AAA and no air force.

I've heard over and over non-stop in this thread "there's no counter to airpower"... the truth is... there is and always has been... it's your own air force... people just don't like the answer... they act like (because it requires oil, or because they then have to be bothered with researching flight) fighters aren't a valid counter to bombers that counts.

I'm not sure why my point that fighters ARE the counter, has been ignored over and over and over again in this thread. Folks are getting upset over silly stuff IMO... "oil should be free"... "don't want to be bothered with building aircraft"... I don't know what it is... but simply put, the counter is airpower, fighters can and should be used to stop enemy bombers, and I really don't care for all the constant complaining about oil requirements... "what if I don't have oil?"... GO GET IT... you have plenty of time to look for it. "But the AI could have their oil targetted, then they'll lose"... guess what folks... thier horses, iron, copper and everything can be targetted too at any stage of the game... IT'S NO DIFFERANT FOLKS.

Ground fire alone has never come even remotely close to stopping an airpower with free reign of the skies to enforcing their power on the enemy from the skies. It may not win a war alone, but considerable damage and/or carnage can be inflicted if you have mastery of the skies. WWII, Vietnam, the Gulf Wars... when the only thing you have to worry about is ground-fire, bombers deliver their payloads with devestating effect. Note, I did include Vietnam... because the air operations (when large-scale bombing became authorized from time to time) was incredibly effective... yet the war was still lost on the ground... Civ4 is no differant... you can lose control of the skies and still win the war on the ground... you're just going to pay a price along the way.

The problem with Civ4 is that Interception completely turns-back attacks rather then just damaging them. Even a low-% ground AA unit would do more in Civ4 then I think it should. This is why I much prefer battles be fought in the skies for control of the skies. It's more realistic, it's closer to history, and works better in Civ4 game mechanics... you need only read that last story in this thread about a great air war... the system I implemented works if only you give it a chance to and stop fighting it.

I've also made the discovery of flight something more AI civs will take much more seriously then in any default version of Civ4... I found no matter what, the AI tended to shy-away from developing flight... which was a much bigger problem then any gameplay mechanics... the AI can't fight in the air if it never develops flight, and I made considerable changes to get the AI to research flight, and they now do it now a lot more then before!

I've been slowly but surely fine-tuning the air war in this mod over the past several versions... many changes have been unannounced (like the AI's increasing propensity to develop flight on it's own). What I've done WORKS folks... give it a chance.

This picture really sums-up my entire point all-along...

This is a German city protected by a lot of AAA... doesn't look too-hot, does it?

The only thing that is going to stop that kind of destruction is your own air force intercepting those bombers.

Folks... This is Berlin after the war... one of the most heavily AAA-protected cities in all Europe... if you don't control the skies, bad things will happen!

 

[arstal]

That's the Civ4 Equivalent of 12-16 Bombers. This is why I think bombing should be more effective. Another relevant question- how many planes went down over Berlin?
How antiquated was Iraqi AA in the first Gulf War? It didn't do a lot of good, but it did shoot down a plane or two.

I think we're the only two in this thread who actually served in the air force. Though the closest I got to any air mission was cancelling due to turbulence/icing/thunderstorms/winds.

Also, wouldn't fighters be able to take out the air defenses? If you did include such a unit- I'd ask for fighters to be able to lethally kill those units, and target those units the same way ballista elephants target cavalry. This would render the units ineffective except for a turn or two- which I think is the most realistic outcome.

I'll need to see how it works in Merged Mods before judging which system is better- but I think yours is more realistic. That said, I think bombing missions do need to be added to make bombers more devestating. Perhaps bombers should be able to take a unit down to 10% health instead of 50%, or get XP for successful bombing missions/interceptions?

 

[Wodan]

has been ignored over and over and over again in this thread

It hasn't... you just don't like the answer that people aren't ignoring it.

If someone takes your current implementation, and suggests something that to them is an improvement, to them that's an incremental change. To you, it's "ignoring your answer" and is a decremental change.

I'm not trying to be contradictory, just point out that people are trying to offer suggestions, that's all. (And yes, I realize you're going to respond to this and say, "I don't care, it's my vision and I'll do it that way". Meanwhile, you say you appreciate feedback and suggestions.)

Anyway... would it be out of bounds for you to define exactly what sort of suggestions you would welcome?

Wodan

 

[Wolfshanze]

Anyway... would it be out of bounds for you to define exactly what sort of suggestions you would welcome?

Well ones that I agree with of-course!

Seriously though... I've taken a lot of suggestions and implemented them... folks just think because I turn a particular suggestion down I turn all suggestions down!

That's simply not true either (guess some folks didn't like my answer either).

 

[Wodan]

Oh, agreed! I'm just trying to avoid additional future... ahem... differences of opinion.

Wodan

 

[Pendragon65]

Hi wolfie i know this is annoying but if you put in a light AAA piece (sigh) as a big wing man we could counter it with a nice new aircraft type, possibles RAF Pathfinders or US Wild Weasels just to target said AAA pieces and blow the S**T out of them. Just a thought.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Well, when I finish my current game, I'm going to release v2.7... and when I do that, I'm going to implement a new trick/gimmick, that's kinda cool... and to my knowledge, noboby else has done or thought of (I think... but even I'm not all-knowing).

Hopefully it will be a sort of "peace offering" to the anti-oil/no-AF-building/AAA-rules Wolfshanze Mod camp (and I'm joking guys... please don't get worked-up for my using those stereotypes!).

You won't have to build an air force... you won't need any oil, and you'll be able to destroy enemy fighters, airships and bombers with my new implementation...

You know what's even funnier? I thought about doing this before the whole "we want our AAA" discussion even came up (and no, I'm still not adding AAA).

I can't wait to put it in the mod, but I want to finish my own game first (and it breaks backwards compatability with saves).

 

[Pendragon65]

Oh No! i aint running my Navy & Airforce on Banannas for Christ sake HaHaHa

 

[Kilroywashere]

Hey, just a question, weren't WW2 Planes made from Aluminum? I know that making them require Aluminum would PO the "I don't have Oil and can't build planes or ships crowd" but wasn't it how it happened.

In an unrelated note: There were the three airforces (RAF, USAF, Red Army Airforce; hell, I can't believe they didn't hit each other) bombing Berlin by the end of the war, and even though the germans didn't have an effective airforce (if it could be called that), the Allies did suffer SOME causualties. AAA wasn't a total bust.

Another Unrelated note, Weren't submarines availible during WW1? It's just the current placement is lopping them in with WW2 ships. The current placement is Electricity-with Heavy Cruisers and Destroyers. The Hv. Crusier + Destroyer require Artillery, but so do Dreadnoughts and Destroyer escorts so the Submarine is currently placed with WW2 units. Unfortunately, I am unable to offer suggestions on how to fix this or if it should be fixed, but it doesn't seem right (considering German U-boat Warfare was a deciding factor in the US entering WW1).

a third unrelated suggestion; why don't other ships beside the privateer get money from blockading? I know it might not be historically accurate, but I don't think an ability like this should be limited to just a single, rather useless ship. To use it effectively, you have to build fleets of privateer to raid a rivals shipping. This should also be availible to the Submarine, which is sort of a desendant of the privateer.

And on the topic of submarines, I personally believe submarines should be able to attack who ever they want without declaring war. This concept played an important role in WW1, as discussed earlier. And it's really a simple change in XML; just find <alwayshostile> and change a zero to a one. I've done it one my end, but after using this for awhile I think it should also cause a -1 relations, and I can't do that. (it's wierd really, I'm having an undeclared naval war with my best friend)

These are just a few things I've noticed while playing your mod.

 

[Kilroywashere]

In an unrelated note: There were the three airforces (RAF, USAF, Red Army Airforce; hell, I can't believe they didn't hit each other) bombing Berlin by the end of the war, and even though the germans didn't have an effective airforce (if it could be called that), the Allies did suffer SOME causualties. AAA wasn't a total bust.

Crap, I forgot something. Dresden would have been a better example because the almost the entire city was leveled in a small number of raids.

 

[Kilroywashere]

get XP for successful bombing missions/interceptions?

I totally, and whole-heartily agree with this statement.

(Also, I'm playing a game, had no oil/coal, fought Joao, Monty, boudica and KHAN! for resources. I control the only way out of their ports (inland sea). Epic naval combat ensues. Later, their fleets in ruin, I land, wipeout Jo, and Khans homeland, not colonies; boudica strikes and takes all my winnings, cept Oporto thats built on Oil. Monty hides in corner only to declare war on Boudica! captures three cities in as many turns, only to wind up with no oil, no allies, no navy. I bomb crap out of him, take everything cept texcoco. Wang K. (@ war with Huacnasomethingorother) wins in diplomatic victory. Screaming Begins!

 

[Wolfshanze]

Hey, just a question, weren't WW2 Planes made from Aluminum? I know that making them require Aluminum would PO the "I don't have Oil and can't build planes or ships crowd" but wasn't it how it happened.

Certainly not all WWII aircraft were made from aluminum... alot were made from wood, canvas and other building materials (the RAF Mosquito was all-wood frame).

In an unrelated note: There were the three airforces (RAF, USAF, Red Army Airforce; hell, I can't believe they didn't hit each other) bombing Berlin by the end of the war, and even though the germans didn't have an effective airforce (if it could be called that), the Allies did suffer SOME causualties. AAA wasn't a total bust.

No... it wasn't a total bust... it just wasn't an effective counter... folks keep saying they want an effective counter... AAA isn't one. If I could make AAA that damages but doesn't turn back bombers, I'd do it... but as it is in Civ4 game mechanics, an intercept by AAA would turn back the attack... I don't like that.

Another Unrelated note, Weren't submarines availible during WW1? It's just the current placement is lopping them in with WW2 ships. The current placement is Electricity-with Heavy Cruisers and Destroyers. The Hv. Crusier + Destroyer require Artillery, but so do Dreadnoughts and Destroyer escorts so the Submarine is currently placed with WW2 units. Unfortunately, I am unable to offer suggestions on how to fix this or if it should be fixed, but it doesn't seem right (considering German U-boat Warfare was a deciding factor in the US entering WW1).

Yep they were... and Subs are CLEARLY available in WWI... even BEFORE WWI (which is also accurate)... if you think they are only WWII units, you're not researching in the right order!

WWI units in the Wolfshanze Mod are unlocked with Assembly Line+Artillery for the most part.... WWII Destroyers and Heavy Cruisers require Electricity+Combustion+Assembly Line+Artillery... meaning they come after most WWI units unlock... Subs need only Electricity+Combustion... they do NOT need Assembly Line or Artillery, so can in-fact be built BEFORE WWI units can (I know this because in my current game, I have Electricity and Assembly Line, but no Artillery... so I can build
Pre-Dreadnoughts and Subs, but not Dreadnoughts or Heavy Cruisers.

Trust me... I've got this all figured out guys!

Oh... and on the subject of why the US got into WWI... it wasn't subs... Lusitania sank in 1915 (which is often called the reason we got in the war)... funny that the US didn't get involved till 1917, which kinda blows that out of the water... actually... it was the Zimmerman Letter that really ticked the US off and got us into the war!