Buddhism and War

blackheart said:
As pointed out above, Japanese warlords massacred Christian converts because they were pledging their loyalties to the Church instead of their lieges. I would like to point out though, that 50% of Japan is Shinto, and the other half Buddhist. So this case cannot be counted as a Buddhist "Holy War".

It doesn't matter what it is now. It matters what it was then. And even that doesn't really matter. What matters is this fact which you glossed over or perhaps didn't notice:

"It was not until 1587, when there were 200,000 Christians in Japan, that an edict of persecution, or rather of prescription, was passed to the surprise of everyone, at the instigation of a bigoted bonze, Nichijoshonin [a Buddhist monk], zealous for the religion of his race."

So at least for THAT Buddhist, a bonze [bonze means Buddhist monk], it was motivated by religion and he was responsible for instigating it. Surely he would not have been alone (I mean it's impossible that just 1 out of millions would have felt that)

And the pledging loyalties thing is a religious matter (it certainly WAS one for those martyred and those who murdered them certainly KNEW it was one for those martyred ... and then there's that bonze who instigated it all for zealous religious reasons) ... it's the same thing as when Christians were persecuted during the Roman Empire for not acknowledging the Emperor, etc.
 
Keirador said:
At several points, wars were launched in the name of religion. Chinese admiral Zen He interrupted one during the 15th century that was being fought on the pretext that one Sinhalese Buddhist sect was heretical. I will completely agree that the real motivation was secular (trading opportunies in addition to land) but such is the case with many wars when leaders co-opt religion to justify their aggression or atrocity.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: It was a dispute over who would rule Sri Lanka that Zheng He interrupted during his voyages.
 
Moderator Action: Moved to History.

On-topic, not that I know of. Early on, Buddhism has always discourages war, as was in the case of Asoka (of the Mauryan empire of India).

But then, you have all these Buddhist sects which began springing up after some time and the further you're from India, so...

Japan's case was rather unique. The war-monks there were a political force to be reckoned with - so they had a case against Christian converts too, who were seen as rebels in a way.
 
alex994 said:
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: It was a dispute over who would rule Sri Lanka that Zheng He interrupted during his voyages.
IIRC it was 'cause the King of Ceylon disdained to recognize the emperor as his overlord. The Chinese landed 26,000 men or so and took the king back to Beijing in chains.

After he had made the proper allegiance, he was reinstated and brought back to Ceylon in style.

Those were the days... *sighs wistfully* :ack:
 
XIII said:
IIRC it was 'cause the King of Ceylon disdained to recognize the emperor as his overlord. The Chinese landed 26,000 men or so and took the king back to Beijing in chains.

After he had made the proper allegiance, he was reinstated and brought back to Ceylon in style.

Those were the days... *sighs wistfully* :ack:

and didn't zheng he's men take the buddha's something from the island as well? :(
 
Cierdan, a quick google search for the name, Nichijoshonin, reveals all of *three* sites that even mention it. Unsurprisinly, they're all devoted Christian site, which also tend toward the higher-end estimates of the number of victims (such as the "two to three hundred thousands slaughtered in 1650" claim).

Conversedly, the vast majority of OTHER sites on this issue refers mostly to political reasons, and take the (wise) position that "we do not know for sure why Toyotomi Hideyoshi changed his mind in 1587 on Christians". Certainly, given that we are talking about one of the Three Warlords, the POLITICAL reason is far more believable; Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Tokugawa Ieyasu persecuted ANYTHING they felt were obstacles to their political goals and/or menaces, whether religions, enemy lords, or whatever else. INCLUDING Buddhist threats as the Ikko buddhists can attest. They were thorough politicians more interested in breaking up any "power within the state" and agrandizing their nation than anything else. (I'm reminded of Richelieu, who apparently wasn't too strong on mixing politics and religion, seeing as he brought France in the thirty-year war on the protestant side, despite France being a Catholic nation (and Richelieu a cardinal of the Catholic church)).

The same goes for your source's claim of several hundred thousands being massacred in 1650 : again, this is something that no other sources seems to corroborate (and it display singular ignorance in refering to one of the highest-ranking advisors of the Tokugawa shoguna, Arai Hakuseki, as a simple judge). Even the same source (Catholic's Encyclopedia)'s article on Japan proper makes no mention of this so-called 1650 massacre.

Food for thought.
 
Like Christian 'wars of faith' the religion aspect is little more than an excuse - or a 'civilised' veneer over a reprehensible act.

Obviously, the Crusades and the religion where mutually exclusive - in that anyone partaking of the one cannot realistically pretend to the other.

Thus, and likewise, I would assume that Buddhism can equally be used as that politic layer of BS that humans so often use to excuse it's more disgusting behaviours./

During the second Indochina war, religion was used by both sides in Cambodia - as far as a polarity can be defined - as their 'call to arms' agains the opposition.

In Vietnam itself there were armed groups which publically preached their alignment to Buddhism.

Obviously, their armament was at odds with the religion - but the claim was made nontheless.
 
Oda Nobunaga said:
Cierdan, a quick google search for the name, Nichijoshonin, reveals all of *three* sites that even mention it.

I don't think you realize that that's probably just because of the spelling ... and I'm guessing you still won't realize what I mean after you read this ;)

Conversedly, the vast majority of OTHER sites

Uh huh, like all the Japanese and Buddhist ones that talk about it Anyway numbers on google don't matter. What matters is the reliability of the sources. This is an encyclopedia that is well respected by people of all religions. It's referenced a lot on wikipedia. It's referenced on philosophy websites. It's referenced by Protestant websites. I'm sure it's also referenced by a lot of other websites that I don't know about. About 4000 websites reference it according to your beloved google. This is a MULTI-VOLUME encyclopedia that you would find at ANY good, reasonably sized university library. It's like 20 volumes or something. It's a scholarly work and no one questions the integrity of its scholarship, even if they disagree with the opinions. So your "google" argument for the non-existence of this bonze is ... ridiculous :crazyeye:

again, this is something that no other sources seems to corroborate

Spoken by a true scholar :goodjob: , one who relies on google results to do his scholarly, academic, history research :rolleyes: .... why don't you go to a good-sized university library (you can probably pay for access if they don't give you it for free) and go find this multi-volume encyclopedia there and look at the entry and discover to your bewilderment that a bunch of primary sources are listed there ;) and then look up those sources and do a google on them :p

Even the same source (Catholic's Encyclopedia)'s article on Japan proper makes no mention of this so-called 1650 massacre.

So? Why mention the same thing in a bunch of different articles? In a lot of the articles they actually point you to a separate article for further discussion .... just like they do in a lot of encyclopedias. Besides, that you do realize that encyclopedias are written by a lot of different people don't you? Generally each different entry is written by a different person or different group of persons.

Food for thought.

Food for thought. Could it be that Buddhists are no less prone to religious violence and hatred than Christians and Jews? :rolleyes: Somehow it's not OK in PC land to say that Muslims are more prone to religious violence and hatret but it IS OK to say in PC land to say that Christians and Jews are more prone to religious violence (than Buddhists) :rolleyes:

On TETurkhan's mod, there's some call Buddhist fanatical warrior monks btw :) It's the Tibetan UU and also more or less the Buddhism religion UU (there's religions in his mod), Not an argument, just a FYI ;)
 
Keirador said:
Not sure if I should applaud a good literary quote, or take offense.

At any rate, I wouldn't be that interested in this thread had someone not challenged me. I'm more interested in education reform, global wealth distribution through capitalist means, the proliferation of freedom, creating a more effective global community, and Modest Mouse. What? Modest Mouse rocks, OK?
Err OK with the Modest Mouse (WTH?). I now see the many great, important issues we agree on now.

I didn't mean to cause offense, just dropping a quote which nicely fitted my state of mind on the subject when I posted. In the cold light of day I have to say it remains much the same.
 
Cierdan.

1 - Yes, I know Google is not much of a scholarly research tool. It IS, however, useful to get ALL sides of a story. In this case, while the results of the googling certainly do not PROVE anything, they *DO* cast a doubt over the claim of the articles you make.

2 - "Japanese and budhist site". Because a Catholic site is better? HOW?

3 - You claim the Catholic encyclopedia is a respected source, and cite "their being quoted on Wikipedia" to support your point. First, citing Wikipedia is little better than my citing Google, in case you didn't realize. Second, what other evidence do you have? Third, even the Wikipedia article on this topic ("Kiri****an") fails to mention either the several-hundred-thousands-massacred issue, OR the bonze, at least that I noticed.
 
With respect to the posting about the Japanese, the same government officials who persecuted the Christians *also* persecuted Buddhists as well. One of the mainstream depictions of this is in the historical anime Rurouni Kenshin (which also depicts the Christian persecutions) where one of the "bad guys" is a former Buddhist monk who lost his faith after seeing his monastery and the orphans in it burnt to the ground by government officials. The reason for the Buddhist persecution in the 19th century was that there was a movement to make Shinto the national religion and a general rejection of all things which came from China and a celebration of all things "native Japanese" and was a precursor to the "god-king" mentality and the eventual "inferior race" attitudes to China and Korea which led to the Japanese invasion of the mainland. To claim that the Japanese persecution of Christianity is in any way blamed on Buddhism shows a contemptable ignorance of history and is akin to blaming the gypsies or homosexuals (vast numbers of whom were killed during the Final Solution and who were put in the same category as Jews by the Nazis) for the persecution of the Jews during the Holocaust.

EDIT: OK, sorry, I reread the message and realised they were talking about events prior to the 19th century.
 
As for the general persecution of Christians in Japan, I for one can't really blame the governments at the time. If Christian missionaries had come alone, on their own, like the Buddhist missionaries originally did, there probably wouldn't have been too much trouble. However, Christian missionaries inevitably came accompanied by government officials and soldiers during a time when the governments they were connected to where very unpopular because they were trying to take over the country. They were therefore not seen as free agents but government agents and spies. This is one of the major reasons why charities today, besides evangelical US Christian ones, try to avoid any image of them being in any way connected to any government and why they deplore things which the US army does which can be considered as confusing them with army functions. When this occurs, they inevitably get attacked. And one only has to look at the example of South America to see how true it was that missionaries were in fact agents of their governments. This is especially true when you consider that at the time the Christian church was closely allied with the governments of European nations. It would be like a Christian evangelical group very publicly closely aligned with the Bush administration, financially and politically with most members of the administration members of this one group and with most people publicly acknowledging they were one of the true powers behind the throne, sending missionaries to X in the Middle East with the expressed aim of converting the people there. Is anyone going to believe they are not connected to US government policy? Secondly, suppose the US government just sent massive numbers of troops to the border of country X and are trying to pressure it to give up land for a "free trade area" and is clearly trying to control the government of country X. Let's just say they in the process of invading country Y which is next to country X. Now, the US government is clearly not very popular and is seen as a hostile entity trying to take over the country. The missionaries are a member of a group very closely aligned to the US government and people in country X are aware of how the US governmetn previously used missionaries to implement invasions and government policy in a far away country Z. Do you *think* are going to get away unscathed? I don't think so. Hell, if I was a member of that government I would have kicked them out of the country as possible government spies.

Freedom of religion should only exist when the religion is not actually tied to any governments and armies. Once they are, I don't believe that they deserve freedom of religion and should be treated as government agents. Whether they are treated well or not then depends on how good the relationship is between the governments. You are a religious group which wants to control a government and have massive political power, and put your clerics to help said governments implement government policy, well then suck it up when foreign governments treat your clerics like government agents, because you *are*. Sometimes, it's not about religion, it's about the fact your clerics are effectively government agents of a government which is trying to take over another country. They don't hate you because you are a different religion, they hate because you're trying to invade them. I suspect if the clerics were Buddhist monks from China from a monastery very closely aligned with the Chinese government and the Chinese were trying to invade Japan I strongly suspect they would gotten the same treatment as the Christian missionaries did. In fact, Buddhists *were* persecuted later when Chinese influences were considered to be harmful and were was a strongly patriotic movement on to promote native Japanese culture in the 19th century, including promoting Shinto over Buddhism.
 
Oda Nobunaga said:
Cierdan.

1 - Yes, I know Google is not much of a scholarly research tool. It IS, however, useful to get ALL sides of a story. In this case, while the results of the googling certainly do not PROVE anything, they *DO* cast a doubt over the claim of the articles you make.

2 - "Japanese and budhist site". Because a Catholic site is better? HOW?

3 - You claim the Catholic encyclopedia is a respected source, and cite "their being quoted on Wikipedia" to support your point. First, citing Wikipedia is little better than my citing Google, in case you didn't realize. Second, what other evidence do you have? Third, even the Wikipedia article on this topic ("Kiri****an") fails to mention either the several-hundred-thousands-massacred issue, OR the bonze, at least that I noticed.

It looks like you didn't get my point about spelling. There are different transliterations of the same Japanese word. If you google for an uncommon one or one that is generally out of use (such as this one since the encyclopedia was written about 90 years ago), you might not find that many hits. Try other spellings and you'll get hits. Better yet, use the original Japanese word and you'll get plenty of hits.

As I've already mentioned, this source is linked to by close to 4000 websites. You can verify this yourself by using google. Use the "link" parameter. If you don't know how to do that, ask and I'll show you.

Also, this source is referenced by philosophy sites, including ones that are found on highly respected universities (yes, including non-Catholic ones since you don't seem to trust Catholics -- and yes including secular ones if it turns out you don't trust any religious people)

Also, it is referenced by religious websites of a non-Catholic persuasion such as Protestant websites. I can link some of them if you don't believe me.

Finally, it is found in any good-sized university library, at least in the US. Go to one (assuming you live in the United States and are able to travel to one and access it ... if they screen people at the door, you may have to ask for access or pay a small fee; otherwise, you can see it for free), and you'll find it there. It's a multivolume work. It's integrity is acknowledged by all scholars. It's opinions are of course not agreed with by all, but no one doubts its scholarly integrity.

Your attempt to deny that the massacre happened is eerily similar to attempts by some to deny that the Holocaust happened. For some reason it is OK in PC land to deny or minimize massacres of Catholics but to deny or minimize massacres of Jews is not OK ... anyway just go to a good-sized university library if you live in the US and are able to access one and see for yourself. As they say, "seeing is believing." I'm not going to bother finding a non-Catholic website for you somewhere because I know you won't trust that either. It's your choice what you want to believe and no one can make you change if you don't want to :)
 
One thing about the Japanese persecution of Christians which I think excludes it from being considered a "religious war" is I don't believe the Japanese government ever use *religion* as an excuse. I'm sure they accused Christians of being foreign agents and traitors to the country but I don't believe they executed them for something like heresy, devil-worship or relgious impropietry. All wars in the end including religious wars such as the Crusades really begin because of power/land/money reasons. What tinges them as "religious" is whether religion is used as a calling card for the ordinary citizens. Just because one religious group in particular is targeted does not mean it is a religious war. For example, in Iraq, the vast majority of dead are Muslims and the invading army is mostly Christian. However, very few people, except conspiracy theorists or religious fundamentalists on either side, will say that Iraq should be considered a religious war. Ditto I don't think that the attempt to colonise China (Buddhists, Taoists etc.) by Christians was really a religious war. I'd like someone to show proof that the justification for execution in Japan given by the government of the time was actual religious and not "they were dirty traitors to the country". Otherwise I don't see how it can be considered a religious war against Christians. A war against what was considered to be invading Europeans with any native Japanese who show any sign of following them, which conversion to Christianity was an obvious sign of, as traitors and collaborators, yes. Religious war, no. Remember, not everyone thinks the same way as you do. Religious justifications for wars is a natural part of Western Christian thinking. So it is natural for Christians to assume that a group is targeted for religious reasons. People assume that other people would act the same they do. However, that is not the E. Asian way. Groups are targeted because they annoy the government. Superstition is despised by the scholarly elite but that's not the same thing as religion and it's not like they'd execute anyone for being superstitious. Religion does not play the same role in E. Asian thinking as it does in European Christian. There is no centralised authority, or even centralised holy book. Religion as practised amongst ordinary people consists mostly of superstition, herbal medicine, fortune telling, whatever gods happen to be popular in the region, folk tales, agricultural festivals and is strongly centered around the family. If a certain monk or priest gains favour amongst a politician a monastery could gain a lot of political influence. But you know what, it has no influence amongst ordinary people. A monastery cannot tell a random village to do something. Monks and priests don't hold sermons or services. They don't even hold marriage rites (at least not in traditional China). They do not have any central role in E. Asian communities. Besides, most ordinary people despise monks who gain power. There are tons of jokes about corrupt monks and priests, dating back centuries. Honestly speaking, the lesson I learn from folk tales and history lessons is that a monk/priest in power is a bad person, because they do tend to be tghe villains in many stories.

Another thing that prevents powerful monks from inciting religious wars is that the people in power tended to be Confucian bureaucrats and they despised monks and priests because as I said the scholarly elite despise superstition. Not to mention monks and priests tended to appeal directly to the emperor and hence like eunuchs was a threat to the bureacrat's power. And they write the history books :) Not to mention if anyone needed to actual mobilise the army in a religious war, who is going to have to organise it - the Confucian bureaucracy? They're not going to mobilise for religious reasons. Also I suspect, since the Confucian bureaucracy would be organising the whole thing, they aren't going to be putting a too religious tinge on it. It goes against their grain. If they were to put any cultural tinge to it it would be against "barbarians". Concepts of cultural superiority are much more important and more ingrained than any religious reasons. In fact this was the slogan of anti-Western and anti-Shogunate forces during the Meiji revolution - "throw out the foreign barbarians and restore the emperor". Hell, even the Chinese "ghost-man" to describe Westerners is more cultural than religious. Most Westerners like to translate it into "devil" indicating religious slants. However, it's because you see, Chinese are men - they are civilised, cultured and you know generally well civilised. Something which takes the form a man but is not a man is a ghost. This is emphasised by the fact that the word for "man" or "woman" used in "ghost-man" means an uncivilised hillbilly barbarian. Japanese, Phillipines etc. all have "ghost" appended to their descriptions as well at various times. It's not religious, it's cultural and racial snobbery. This plays a much more important role in justifying wars and persecution in E. Asia than religion does. We can kill them because they are uncivilised barbarians in a very popular theme through E. Asian history. It's not any better than religious justifications but it's not the same thing. A Confucian bureaucrat would be insulted by the very idea of a religious war. How you would even get ordinary people worked up on religious grounds is another matter. How you would get all the monasteries in the country to agree to follow a single line from one monastery considering the compete with each other is another matter. Not to mention they don't have much authority really amongst ordinary people. There is something known as false consensus in which you believe people will do something because you would do it (or your culture I guess). Note that the attempts in Japan to form a national religion and justify massacres, invasions etc. on religious grounds only started occuring after the Meiji revolution when they consciously started to copy Western technology and societal structures.

In summary, religious wars don't have much traction in E. Asia because:

1. Well, religion is very similar everywhere. Buddhism + Taoism + Ancestor veneration + animism and shaminism. There's not really that much to differentiate on religious grounds.
2. Confucianism despises superstition. Also, any monk/priest who gets into power is seen as a threat to the power of the Confucian bureaucrats.
3. Religion is very decentralised. Any monk/priest who gets into power tends to be despised by the general populace who grew up on folk tales of corrupt monks and priests and dire lessons written in history books by Confucian scholars of evil monks and priests who lead astray emperors by seducing them with promises of immortality or magic tricks. So monks who get into power have a serious religious credibility problem.

Also in Japan there is historically strong suspicion of Buddhist monks/priests close to the seat of power due to a previous emperor who nearly ruined the country because of her Buddhist monk adviser/lover (?). This also turned Japanese off female emperors. Of course the history of this period was written by Confucian scholars (anyone see a pattern emerging here?)
4. Racial/cultural superiority is seen as a much better justification for general massacre than religious reasons.
 
If there's a bigotted buddhist bonze back in the 16th c., my bet is that he belonged was a follower of the home-grown Japanese school of Nishiren ('Pure Land', I think, but Uiler might be alble to expand.). Which is sometimes described as a peculiarily Japanese nationalistic form of Buddhism.

But still, waging war in Buddhas name seems to go against the grain on the religion. Not that it can't be done, but those involved seem to have to work a bit harder on their karma than warmongering Christian princes. (Some would say war goes against the spirit of christianity as well.)

I suspect part of the reason militant Buddhism hasn't been more common historically, is that of the 'great' religions it may be the one that has been the least favourite choice as a dominant, orthodox state religion.
A few centuries in India, at which point there were some godawful big wars and powerful emperors, and several centuries in China and Japan, but never without serious competition from Daoism, Confucianism and Shinto.
 
Well I can't unfortunately :) Still I'd like to also stress the importance of the fact that most of the time real power was in the hands of Confucian bureaucrats - or at least they'd have to be the ones to organise the army. For example while religion is generally considered a *good* thing for armies in Western culture, Chinese war manuals (e.g. Zhuge Liang's "Way of the General") lists overly religious people as one of the 5 big enemies of an army. Classic Confucian snobbery about this sort of thing and the traditional view of powerful religious figures can be seen in Sima Guang's history,

Zhang Lu taught superstition.12 Those who were sick were required to confess their sins, and he said prayers for them. It was no practical help in curing them, but masses of ignorant people, confused and foolish, vied
with one another to serve him...Later, he attacked and occupied Ba commandery. The court was not strong enough to fight him, so he was given title as General of the Gentlemen of the Household Who Maintains the People in Peace, and was also appointed Grand Administrator of Hanning.14 He sent up tribute, but
that was all.

From Suma Chien:

In 417BC, the counts of Ch'in began to drown one of their daughters...in the Yellow River, to marry her to the Genie of the River...to increase their power...Pao..governor of the town of Yeh, delivered it of it...Pao made known to the notables, abettors of the custom, that as an act of devotion, he would honour with his presence the first marriage of that kind which would next take place. The notables quickly arranged one...Pao first caused the sorceress who was to direct the ceremonies to be thrown into the river, in order that she might go and notify the Genie of the approaching arrival of his fiancee. Next he had the first notable to be thrown into the water, in order that he might fulfil the duties of best man. He was about to continue with the other organisers, on the pretext of forming the nuptial procession, when they begged for mercy.

One other thing, in China at least, Buddhist monasteries were often big enemies of the government as they were popular for tax avoidance. Hence they got raided and/or shut down every now and then for monetary reasons with the government proclaiming the monastery as full of "corrupt" monks :)

In the West, kings used to get justification for their rule from the Church "appointed by God" and all that. In E. Asia, the religious justification for the Emperor's rule did not come from Buddhism or Taoism, but much much older traditions that culminated in Confucianism in China with a rather nebulous concept of "Heaven". In Japan it was much older pre-Chinese influence religion plus Confucianism. The emperors did not NEED the support of the Buddhist or Taoist monasteries and this would have sizeably reduced their influence. In fact it would usually be the other way round. The monasteries needed the support of the *emperor*. Confucian support however was necessary. Besides, at least in China, Buddhist monasteries were often a big financial thorn in the side of the royal court.

Verbose said:
If there's a bigotted buddhist bonze back in the 16th c., my bet is that he belonged was a follower of the home-grown Japanese school of Nishiren ('Pure Land', I think, but Uiler might be alble to expand.). Which is sometimes described as a peculiarily Japanese nationalistic form of Buddhism.

But still, waging war in Buddhas name seems to go against the grain on the religion. Not that it can't be done, but those involved seem to have to work a bit harder on their karma than warmongering Christian princes. (Some would say war goes against the spirit of christianity as well.)

I suspect part of the reason militant Buddhism hasn't been more common historically, is that of the 'great' religions it may be the one that has been the least favourite choice as a dominant, orthodox state religion.
A few centuries in India, at which point there were some godawful big wars and powerful emperors, and several centuries in China and Japan, but never without serious competition from Daoism, Confucianism and Shinto.
 
Verbose said:
my bet is that he belonged was a follower of the home-grown Japanese school of Nishiren ('Pure Land', I think, but Uiler might be alble to expand.). Which is sometimes described as a peculiarily Japanese nationalistic form of Buddhism.

Does this school of Buddhism still exist today?

A few centuries in India, at which point there were some godawful big wars and powerful emperors, and several centuries in China and Japan, but never without serious competition from Daoism, Confucianism and Shinto.

There were some other countries that had Buddhism as state religion for a time also.
 
Uiler said:
...One of the mainstream depictions of this is in the historical anime Rurouni Kenshin (which also depicts the Christian persecutions) where one of the "bad guys" is a former Buddhist monk who lost his faith after seeing his monastery and the orphans in it burnt to the ground by government officials...
Hey I remember that guy. Powerful fighter too with all that rage bottled in him. :goodjob: He went back to the light at the end when the ghosts of those dead orphans talked sense into him. My brother however, was imitating the ghosts and trying to give an alternate ending: "Nooo.... Don't stop nowww... Avenge usss..." :lol:
 
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