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Buff Georgia

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by Frostburn, Feb 22, 2018.

  1. iammaxhailme

    iammaxhailme Chieftain

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    In my first Georgia game I got lucky and got to declare whatever war type it is constantly and had so much faith that I won religious victory (standard map size, continents) before I unlocked either unique.

    A civ focusing on religious victory really should not have its uniques come so late.
     
  2. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    I think a challenge for Georgia is that walls just aren’t that great.

    For me, it’s usually fairly borderline whether I need ancient walls in a city. They’re useful for the city defence, and one layer of walls does slow down attacking AI. But one you have that, the next layers of walls offer diminishing returns.

    I do nevertheless build walls, ostensibly for the housing boost (with Monarchy) and maybe a little tourism. But I realise that’s a very inefficient way to play.

    If walls got a bit more love generally (eg they always gave more housing, with Monarchy instead giving loyalty for walls), or walls were more essential to defending from the AI, I think that would actually be a better way to buff Georgia.
     
  3. Human Crouton

    Human Crouton Chieftain

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    Georgia doesn't need its UU or UI to be good. You get a ton of golden ages and double envoys.
     
    Thormodr likes this.
  4. NukeAJS

    NukeAJS Chieftain

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    Georgia can be quite strong, but requires a few things to go right to really get the ball rolling. Some thoughts:

    *Get a pantheon that gives faith unless you're positive you won't get a religion -- whether you go for a religious victory or not.

    *As Georgia, I would HIGHLY recommend founding your own religion and getting the papal primacy religious tenet. Every envoy towards that CS acts as a single missionary spread towards that CS. This helps flip CSs to your religion -- which you can then get the double envoy bonus in addition to another CS passively spreading your religion.

    Also, make sure to time completing CS quests and converting them to your religion. It's a great idea to always have some envoys banked up. When you're about to complete a CS quest but that CS isn't following your religion, drop an envoy one by one until it flips to your religion (if possible). When you finish the quest, you get two envoys and an addition two missionary spreads to that CS. This pretty much guarantees that it's going to following your religion for awhile.

    *Get the Grand Chapel as your tier two government building. It's too useful. The only times I wouldn't recommend it would be if Valetta is on the map (because you'll probably dump faith into city center buildings and not units) and you're allied or you're not making much faith.

    *If faith-buying walls isn't a thing, make sure that run the Limes policy card every so often and switch all your cities to making ancient/medieval/Tsiske (whatever) walls while it's active. Ancient walls go up very quick, but medieval walls can be a pain in the butt.

    *Continuing from above, if Valetta is on the map GET THEM. Faith buying walls is relatively cheap. I'd still recommend building the UB walls the hard way because the investment in faith takes too long to pay-off. I guess it really depends on how much longer you think the game will last.

    *Use the theocracy government whether it's faith-buying walls, units, or apostles

    *If you've done all that so far, you're probably in a very good position for a religious victory. If so, you should probably have Moksha the Cardinal with his final upgrade by now (Apostles can get two upgrades).

    *Standard RV strategy applies.
     
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  5. Sekou

    Sekou Chieftain

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    Got a culture victory with Tamar. I was really impressed with Georgia despite never really playing any of the faith focused civs in the past but wanted to do so with the expansion.

    Here is what I did. YMMV .

    Found a religion .
    Spread it like crazy, esp to CS .
    I had an early dark age but then exploded out with a Heroic Age. OMG .made the game for Tamar .Took the focus that let's you build settlers and builders with faith and just went nuts expanding. Tons of faith cranking out, CS suzerainty on my continent, and science to boot .Much fun to play .

    I agree, waiting to Ren Walls for bonus was a bit late, imo .Medieval seemed more appropriate. UU was interesting but little used .was fun cleaning up barbs on unexplored territory with them though, I suppose . So terrain dependent but I could see on deity if you needed to just survive a dark age and had khevsur and the hills where you'd be impenetrable for a time
     
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  6. Sostratus

    Sostratus Chieftain

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    Khevsur & berserker suffer terribly from the their combat effectiveness vs production cost ratio; as well as being like most units: complete crap compared to knights.

    But we are a data driven bunch, so let's crunch numbers.
    First, we will need to know how to compare two units in terms of their raw Combat Effectiveness. A unit that deals twice as much damage would be twice as effective. A unit that deals twice as much damage and takes half damage, is 4 times as effective. (Basically how much damage a unit could inflict against an endless horde of 1v1 baseline unit combats before it dies.)
    Well, this is exactly what the Civ6 combat formula does; it just computes a damage factor (taken & received) based on the strength difference of the units fighting. So if a unit has a combat factor of 2, it will be four times as effective (see above reasoning.) Incidentally, any Army is 4x as effective as its base unit, because +17 strength is a combat factor of 2- so combat effectiveness is 2^2=4. Okay you pedants, it's like 1.97. But for all we know, they manually tweaked the table. Anyways, my side point is that corps and armies are actually efficient uses of your production. Especially when you get military academy discounts!

    FYI, the combat formula is
    Damage = 30*combat factor* Rand(0.75,1.25)
    where combat factor=e^(Strength Difference /25).
    Essentially, identical units will deal 30 damage to each other, plus or minus up to 25% noise they toss in to spice things up. Combat factor is a multiplier that determines how much damage you take or receive.


    So, if we know the strength of two units on the same upgrade line, and we know their production costs, we can compute how efficient that upgrade is. A unit that is twice as effective and costs twice as much would be an efficiency of 1; greater than 1 implies you're getting more bang for your buck, while less than one implies you're actually better off not upgrading and making the outdated unit. This would also work for units between lines, but let's focus on upgrade lines for now.

    upload_2018-2-23_16-6-35.png

    Here's three of the direct combat lines, indexed so the first unit is 1. Combat Effectiveness is the increase over the previous unit; note that I have muskets compared to swords and not khevsurs here. Efficiency is the Combat effectiveness vs the production cost ratio; Combat efficiency * (Cost_New/Cost_Old).
    We see that almost universally, 1.5-2 is the efficiency of upgrades for almost every unit. Except knight-tank (more on that), spear-pike, and sword-khevsur. That 1.5-2x figure probably relates as a good heuristic to track how players production capacity isn't growing quite as fast as combat power is, so to keep units taking about the same number of turns to make over time they increase the efficiency.
    Knight-tank is skewed because the difference is so large. It's essentially two jumps at once, so it's like a double 2.2x upgrade. It's the same kind of jump as anti-cav was before pike and shot existed. They should really insert an industrial heavy cavalry unit...

    Pikemen universally are known to cost way too much. I'm surprised they didn't fix it in R&F. For their strength, they should cost ~130-150 to be on par with other upgrades. This is also why the Impi are actually good units (they're 1.87x efficient.) Pike & Shot look really good because it's only a 25% cost bump for basically triple the meat.

    But notice Khevsur: they are the only upgrade with an efficiency of less than one! The leader who builds khevsur instead of sticking to swords is actually only 70% as combat effective. What?! Even fighting only on hills, they get a 1.2 efficiency- basically on par with spear to pikes.

    Conclusion: military tactics units cost WAAAY too much for their strength.

    On the aspect of walls, I agree that Tsikhe are too pricey too justify cool looks and +3 faith. Unique walls are a cool concept, but they should probably be normal price with Georgia getting +100% towards walls in their ability, or something like that.
     
  7. Eliminator_Sr

    Eliminator_Sr Chieftain

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    They are IMO very weak and a bottom tier civ for abilities (possibly the weakest overall civ). I like the 100% faith for protectorate wars since that's actually useful now that the AI conquers them more often but the envoys less so. They have no bonuses for actually founding a religion so good luck on emperor+ getting much mileage out of their bonuses. Anything beyond ancient walls aren't worth building IMO due to the AI's inability to pose any threat to your empire late. UU is one of the worst of the game with very situational bonuses and easy to bypass.
     
  8. kaspergm

    kaspergm Warlord

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    I don't understand this thread, why can anybody complain about a civ that has renaissance walls as their unique building? :mischief:
     
  9. Sostratus

    Sostratus Chieftain

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    I think berserkers and khevsurs are the only UUs that are actually pretty much a losing proposition from the outset. As i tried to show in my post.
    It's okay to have a power budget where some parts of a civ aren't as good. But a UU that is actually punishing you for even building it is, well... I don't think they should exist. Even just renaming a standard unit and giving them hats would be superior to these military tactics UUs we've got.
     
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  10. OriginalZin

    OriginalZin Chieftain

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    First off, I'll admit that when Georgia was announced as a Civ I basically decided that it would be the first RnF Civ I play through for two principle reasons. 1. The country and culture are close to my heart as I've travelled there frequently in the last decade and have close friends in Tbilisi. 2. The concept of stringing Golden Ages together seemed interesting.

    With that said, I've found Georgia and Tamar to feel under-powered with a few small tweaks that could give her strength.

    Looking at all of the bonuses, I find Georgia's best shot to succeed is Tamar's bonuses and not Georgia's bonus. The ability to get 2 envoys to each City State as long as it has the same dominant religion of Georgia is quite strong and it allow you to easily establish and maintain suzerainity over a number of CS' and also trigger Era scores for flipping Suzerainty to you as well.

    Everything else about Georgia, however, feels a half-step removed from really effective or synergistic.

    To get the most out of Tamar's ability you really want to control the formation of your religion, since beliefs like Religious Unity or Papal Primacy are particularly important for leveraging your strengths. However, Georgia doesn't get any bonuses or boosts to the religion game until far to late to be helpful- the only boost being the +3 Faith from Tsikhes. As such to have a hope of getting the most out of Tamar's ability you're left bee-lining holy sites immediately, hoping on good luck for the early faith game to help you (ie. village relic, religious CS, Natural Wonder), and/or hoping that you haven't rolled early religion powerhouses like Indonesia.

    After this Georgia's bonuses feel weak or mis-placed.

    The UU Khevsur feels like it's in the wrong place on the tech tree and is hamstrung by the fact that, although it is a sword-wielding unit, cannot be upgraded to from warriors/swordsman. As a result if you want to use these units at all you have to hard build them, after diverting to a mostly useless tech in Military Tactics (unless you have the fortune of a good spot to make use of Huey). Adding the Khevsur to the Swordman upgrade path by itself would make this unit much more attractive.

    The Tsikhe is an even more underwhelming prospect. Ironically it's a unique Wall effectively hidden behind a 'pay-wall' in order to make any use of it you're required to first build the prerequisite ancient and medieval walls. Given that there's little reason to build more than Ancient Walls in most cases, the Tsikhe is an expensive prospect with a hardly important return on investment. All the turns that could be used building to get that +3 faith and later tourism can be much more efficiently used elsewhere. I think the Tsikhe would be more attractive if it was shifted to a Medieval Walls replacement or if Georgia as a whole received a small production boost to building defensive buildings in addition to its Golden Age choice bonus.


    What do you all think? How would you tweak Georgia and Tamar to help this civ and leader feel more effective?
     
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  11. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Warlord

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    Why do I keep seeing this as twerking Tamar? :)


    Most of her bonuses are alright. I'd reduce the cost of the uu by around 33% and make the walls be buildable in place of medieval walls (at castles) but act as Renaissance walls and still keep the +3 faith.
     
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  12. Katakanja

    Katakanja Warlord

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  13. Mojo85

    Mojo85 Chieftain

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    Add a 20% bonus to district building construction in cities with the unique walls, and have them not require a prerequisite of the other earlier walls needing to be built
     
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  14. OmegaDestroyer

    OmegaDestroyer Chieftain

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    I just got done playing with Georgia and I agree with everyone else. The only thing useful about Georgia is the envoy ability. Protectorate wars are pretty rare and the Khevsurs are garbage without hills. The walls are the most irritating part: They come late, provide a measly 3 faith, and tourism? That's it? I'm not going to bother with the Civ until (if ever) it's buffed. It's not fun to play.
     
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  15. OriginalZin

    OriginalZin Chieftain

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    Important point of clarification. Swordsmen don't upgrade to Khevsurs. Khevsurs have to be built from scratch, further diminishing their usefulness in addition to the combat inefficiency you point out. The out of the way position of the Khevsurs on the tech tree in addition to the necessity to hard-build them is, the biggest issue for me. Even if they are somewhat less efficient than swordsman, I think at least allowing them to upgrade to Khevsurs would greatly increase the latter's use.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2018
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  16. Weraptor

    Weraptor Chieftain

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    I just finished my game with Georgia and man, the faith civs are much more fun than before, assuming you get a strong religion. Georgia can be strong if the early game goes well enough and you secure a religion and some game potential. Then the rolling golden Georgian converting and suzerainties gaining ball gets very hard to stop. The UB and UU, while a e s t h e t i c, doesn't seem to impact the game in any way, which is quite sad.
     
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  17. Temppu

    Temppu Chieftain

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    Since they removed the +50% production bonus towards walls from Monarchy, I feel this bonus would fit well as an extension of the Civ ability of Georgia. With the hands of a skilled player, Magnus + Limes + 50% from Civ ability would make mad production overflow to instabuild everything. This would also synergize with their UB quite nicely. They are planning giving production bonus to wall for city states, so they could give this bonus to Georgia as well.
     
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  18. Softly

    Softly Chieftain

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    Playing a game as them now and really enjoying it. While not overpowered their Leader and Civ abilities are both really interesting mechanics. If you get a defensible city state nearby the faith from protectorate wars is really nice. The only "+x for 10 turns" mechanic in the game that doesn't feel cheap/abuse-able IMO. Khevsur have the exact same problems as Beserker/Samurai {(1) can not be upgraded into (2) awkward spot on tech tree (3) Outclassed in every way by knights, they really need to nerf knights} but they have their niche as defensive units in hilly terrain and not every civ needs a powerful UU. It all comes down to their UB which really really needs a buff. So many interesting mechanics they could do with the games first unique walls.
     
  19. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Tried them out, and dang. They had to be trying to come with such a useless set of bonuses. I mean when the best thing is you can make Rennisance Walls cheaper, then it is pretty sad.

    The faith bonus from doing a Protectorate War is not a bad idea, except for the religion requirement which makes it just stupid. Even if I didn't require a religion, I wouldn't call it good; but it'd still be interesting since it'd be situationaly powerful if you can get a protectorate war going. Of course protectorate wars are sorta weak in themselves, as in the CS could be dead before you can do anything, and you have to be suzerain in the first place.

    Being able to chain golden ages seemed like a cool idea before release, but in practice the bonus does nothing to help you get a golden age meaning that it only helps with your 2nd one. That's what? like 80 turns minimum before it does anything and only helps if you missed the GA by a bit. If you were to overshoot anyways, it's useless, so it only helps you when everything comes together. Why not give a real bonus during a golden age?

    And then to add insult to injury, we get a slightly mobile unit at Military Tactics, a dead end tech, so you can totally destroy units from an era before. Oh and they don't upgrade from anything. Even Spain will get something way better only a few techs down.

    So if you're ahead and managed to be suzerain, get a religion, and a golden age, the bonuses might help you a little if you're lucky. If not, well, too bad. I think they should really realize by now that since religion is bound to the founder, not having an advantage to founding a religion really does not work in practice.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
  20. Mr. Shadows

    Mr. Shadows Nomad of the time streams Supporter

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    They're extremely unappealing to me. I'm sure their envoys can be leveraged but I'm not sure I want to. I frequently build ancient walls because I genuinely want them or because I want to exploit the Limes policy. I've only ever built higher levels of Wall for the minimal tourism they provide, and even that isn't really worth it. When you add up all three tiers of walls it is an incredibly expensive UB that comes late and doesn't deliver much. In order for a UB to be strong it either needs to replace something you always build or it has to do something amazing. This does neither.
    *edit*
    I just realized this is in the Ideas & Suggestions Forum. If it started with Ancient Walls and improved with each additional level it might turn into something interesting. As it stands you'll never get enough faith out of them to pay for the hammers.
     

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