Building a better leader: The Adaptive trait
- Thread starter Kael
- Start date
Nikis-Knight
Deity
Oh, bummer. Do any of the other pop-ups work alright so far?
QES
Court Jester
Insane:
My feelings are that the Insane trait should be seperate from the adaptive trait entirely. In theme as well as in design.
Adaptive makes sense (though there should be HEAVY consequences to it)
Insane strikes me as not so much random, as illusory reasoning. People chose out of insanity what makes perfect sense to them, but no one else.
My theory is that Insanity should affect the way things work on a fundamental level. What about if Insane made a few things different in the game.
A) Anarchy is no longer a bad thing, it functions as a Golden age.
B) Civics ALWAYS are automatically chosen when they are discovered (Perpentach always wants to try out a new style) and thusly goes into anarchy.
C) Golden Ages Produce your 5% Chance per turn to change traits. Not cumulative to switch a non-insane trait with another trait. (In 10 turns at 5% a turn, this means a 50% chance during the whole of the golden age)
D) Units are unable to upgrade as normal. There is an "experiment" button that replaces the Uprgrade to button. THis button randomly transforms the unit into another unit in the game (Summoned units included, but without the summon promotion, AND Technology plays 0 role in what unit is potentially made - anything is possible). Perpentachs units therefore could never be upgraded reliably - but the extra golden ages and anti-anarchy make up for this. Experimentation would only be available when the unit normally had a unit it could normally upgrade to - it simply doesnt.
E) [Possible balance] Macabre Drama - When drama is discovered, it allows for theatres and the slider bar adjustment. These theatres produce unhappy faces instead of happy faces, but add to the experiance of units built in the city. Conversely, each 30% of culture applied to the slider bar tax system, would provide 1 happy face to each city.
Crazy enough?
-Qes
My feelings are that the Insane trait should be seperate from the adaptive trait entirely. In theme as well as in design.
Adaptive makes sense (though there should be HEAVY consequences to it)
Insane strikes me as not so much random, as illusory reasoning. People chose out of insanity what makes perfect sense to them, but no one else.
My theory is that Insanity should affect the way things work on a fundamental level. What about if Insane made a few things different in the game.
A) Anarchy is no longer a bad thing, it functions as a Golden age.
B) Civics ALWAYS are automatically chosen when they are discovered (Perpentach always wants to try out a new style) and thusly goes into anarchy.
C) Golden Ages Produce your 5% Chance per turn to change traits. Not cumulative to switch a non-insane trait with another trait. (In 10 turns at 5% a turn, this means a 50% chance during the whole of the golden age)
D) Units are unable to upgrade as normal. There is an "experiment" button that replaces the Uprgrade to button. THis button randomly transforms the unit into another unit in the game (Summoned units included, but without the summon promotion, AND Technology plays 0 role in what unit is potentially made - anything is possible). Perpentachs units therefore could never be upgraded reliably - but the extra golden ages and anti-anarchy make up for this. Experimentation would only be available when the unit normally had a unit it could normally upgrade to - it simply doesnt.
E) [Possible balance] Macabre Drama - When drama is discovered, it allows for theatres and the slider bar adjustment. These theatres produce unhappy faces instead of happy faces, but add to the experiance of units built in the city. Conversely, each 30% of culture applied to the slider bar tax system, would provide 1 happy face to each city.
Crazy enough?
-Qes
Chandrasekhar
Determined
Seems like those could be exploited by a player, but they are quite insane. Not sure if I like it or not, but it's definitely an interesting idea.
Also, 5% per turn for 10 turns doesn't come out to 50% chance of switching for the whole ten turns. Can't be bothered to chart out the probabilities for you, but someone here probably (no pun intended) can.
Also, 5% per turn for 10 turns doesn't come out to 50% chance of switching for the whole ten turns. Can't be bothered to chart out the probabilities for you, but someone here probably (no pun intended) can.
QES
Court Jester
eerr said:
Well, its close enough for government work, so the idea still works.
Im thinking simply that the "insane" quality should be aside from traits all together. Plus, Chand how would you prevent the player from abusing it? I was trying to think up a balance to the anarchy issue, something "whim" based. Like forcing Perpentach to build random and seemingly useless buildings, monuments and wonders that do nothing. (In game terms, perhaps they must be built to reach a level of "normalcy" again, penalize the civ until its built) This could balance the anarchy issues
.-Qes
Chandrasekhar
Determined
Heh, did I say I had any suggestions to make it better? The burden is on you, my friend, and a heavy burden it is. Making an insane AI is easy, but making a player be forced into insanity is another thing entirely. Perhaps these insanity tradeoffs would only be used when the AI plays the Balseraphs.
QES
Court Jester
Chandrasekhar said:
I think making a player insane is simple, just create a very confusing tech/building/unit tree.
You could create powerful benefits, but make it just odd to slog through. I think havingingly seemingly useless buildings and things makes sense (seemed like a good idea to perpentach at the time) but then have them be important at later stages in the game. Perhaps buildings that are useful early game are available late game, and vica versa. So that there is a sense of waste at one moment, then uberization at another.
-Qes
dreiche2
Prince
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2003
- Messages
- 320
I like the original ideas. About what others suggested, I just wanted to mention again that you have to be careful about randomly damaging the player, cause I think usually that's no fun. So I think in particularly loosing your religion at random is pretty bad because you loose your heroes too...
QES said:
A human player could easily spend one third to one half of his time on Anarchy (switching whenever possible), an easy exploit.
This I like
I assume you mean the regular, GP or wonder triggered Golden-Age, not your modified Anarchy. And as has been mentioned, the calculation is not quite correct, but close enough (40% chance to switch at least once, with multiple switching raising the average number of switches to 0.5).
Just watch me building 100 warriors and hitting upgrade on all of them the moment an Ancient Treant appears (or Acheron !! ). No, really, this is too easily exploited and too unbalancing...
Not sure, have to think on it
Too crazy by half
Kael
Deity
Grey Fox said:
Let me know about this. Do you get OOS when the defeated leader popups occur? Do you get an OOS when the Orthus and Acheron popups occur? And was the OOS with Cassiel reproducable? If so I will have to hide the popups in multiplayer.
BCalchet
Human, all too human.
While I havn't played any MP since Adaptive was added, I did see defeat popups several times in a game with the version before - no out of sync errors or other problems.
Yesterday I played a multiplayer game where I was Cassiel with Phi/Org and all those popups worked fine. We had one OOS error during the game but I don't remember anything "special" happening that turn. After reconnecting everything worked fine again.
QES
Court Jester
Halancar said:
Unique units (as in only one in the game) would be excluded, like heros and archeon, and world units. Also youd only ever be able to upgrade ONCE per unit, and it might be a downgrade. I'm also thinking that maybe it should be more expensive than normal upgrading. The idea is that your lowly warrior may in fact turn into a sweet spartiatoi. Or it might turn into a worker you didnt want/need. And the later in the game it becomes, the more dangerous, as you might get units that revert to "lesser" things.
-Qes
Kael said:
We didnt have any problem with the popups, they work fine. The problem seem to be the Adaptive trait. When we hade one player with a civ with adaptive, we got OOS error after maybe 5 turns, and his units didnt get the commando anymore (he chose Raider as trait I guess). This was repeatable over the 2 games we tried, and then we didnt get any OOS when we tried the 3rd game without any adaptive civs.
it wasn't immediately after i choose the raiders traitKael said:
it was a bit later, 2 or 3 turns before i was about to build my first warrior
after i left and rejoined the game it didn't say i had raiders anywhere anymore
and the warrior i just built didn't start with raiders
Nikis-Knight
Deity
Later in the game wouldn't be more dangerous, it'd be the same, as you'd still only build warriors and upgrade them, or the T4 units and not upgrade them. Your insanity is interesting, but I think it probably wouldn't be fun to play, or else would be overpowering.
but in the same vein, you could add: All techs cost 2/3 the price, but you cannot choose what to research.
QES
Court Jester
Nikis-Knight said:
In theory you cannot build warriors if the city has access to build better units. Unless you want to play rulette constantly (and in late game you more or less want guaruntees) your going to build buildings that will allow you access to build better units. Those dont get "warrior" as an option. I'm also thinking that the "experiment" button would be accessible through a national wonder, which would put it in each city - therefor every unit would get a one shot, and you couldnt do "low tech" and "high tech" cities, being able to get the best of both worlds, you either Experiement or dont. <Shrug> just an idea.
-Qes
Nikis-Knight
Deity
Maybe make it just apply to their recon line, have a chance of upgrading to any unit buildable by them, to start.
QES
Court Jester
Nikis-Knight said:
That might be plausible. To simple limit the scope of the crazy. Recon line and mayhaps disciple line? Only units starting as recon or disciple units can "experiement" but they could themselves become ANY line of units (not sea units, clearly). Though, it wouldnt be so far out of line to see perpentach trying to build his "land ship".
-Qes
