Bungle's Persian Immortal Rush

Bungle

Chieftain
Joined
May 14, 2011
Messages
99
Location
Norway
So I finally decided to give Persia a shot. I also thought it would be such a shame if i couldn't put the Immortal UU to good use. So I sat down and did some thinking and testing. I tried the strategy I came up with 3 times on Immortal difficulty(small map), and it worked every time! Here's what I did:

Settle your first city, build a scout, then a monument. Focus on finding your closest neighbors and choose one of them for the rush - if the target has 2 luxury resources, then that is great!

Social policies: Liberty, Citizenship, then Representation - if you're quick enough, the GA from the SP should line up perfectly either right before the rush or during the rush.

For techs, beeline straight to Bronze Working. Start pumping out Immortals. Prioritize luxury resources with your worker. You should get Trapping and Writing ASAP after Bronze Working - other than that, pick what is needed. Animal Husbandry isn't a bad idea if you have horses/cattle/sheep. You might want to get Calendar too, if you need the money. Sell Open Borders to everyone and sell ALL your luxury resources. You can also sell horses for some easy cash.

Keep building and buying as many Immortals as possible, I find that 6 should do the trick. Also try to hit some Ruins with your Warrior - if he gets upgraded to an Immortal, you can rush faster.

When you're ready, move your mighty troops towards the target. If you're feeling exploitative you can rob him of his gold before declaring, but it's not really necessary. DO NOT denounce him before you attack! Doing so will just give you more enemies.

It is VERY important that you don't lose any of your troops early! You have double heal speed and 3 movement, use it to move your wounded units out of range to heal. Give the Medic promotion to all your Immortals.

Once you have disposed of all the enemy warriors, just slowly surround the city - use Fortify as needed. Make sure you capture any workers/settlers so you can quickly turn the city into a puppet gold farm! When they're in position, take the city out.

If the AI already has two cities, no big deal. Just don't lose any units and kill all the warriors and you will easily be able to conquer both cities - in fact, this might even be a good thing :) It will most likely give you your first Great General for an extended GA, plus more promotions for your units.

From here on you can do whatever you want. You have a very strong start with lots of gold income and happiness. You can do a delayed NC start(that's what I did). You can settle some more cities(I settled 2-3) and you will still have a strong culture output. You can beeline Civil Service and use the GE from Meritocracy to rush build Chichen Itza for some sweet long-lasting GAs. You can try to conquer another AI, but it might not work and will probably make you public enemy #1.

In the game I finished, I went for a builder approach after the initial rush. I used the Immortals to defend against barbs and deter other AIs from attacking me. Washington became my best friend, but some of the other AIs became guarded/hostile. I bribed Washy to DoW the hostile ones to keep them off my back.

Eventually I did a rifle/cannon rush and won the game with my sweeeeet upgraded Immortal/riflemen :king:

So what do you think guys? Is it a valid strategy? Is it worth taking Representation?

I hope the post was written well enough :crazyeye: I get easily confused by my own writing, lol.
 
Sounds solid enough, curious if it works on Deity, however it looks like if you can smash one AI before longswords start being spammed on the field it would be solid.

I def might try it this weekend :)
 
It's just as simple to go into the Honour tree and grab the GG +Discipline. You do somewhat want the GG with the troops and not just GA pop it. +20% beats +10%. especially when you can have +30%. (Immortals effectively get to ~11 CS)

But I've noticed that if you have an enemy that spawned within 8 tiles of you, it's actually better to do the first attack without the GA, and force them to hand you their lux. That way, you use their one-two lux to speed you into a natural GA. This is a somewhat rarer occurrence though.

I had Alex start right beside me and DoW before my first Immortal was up. After pushing back his warriors, I walked my group of 4 Immortals/scouts/etc to his closest city and he gave up the Lux. It didn't take too long to hit the GA; at which point I DoW'd and killed him.

oh, and if you go the Immortal route, you absolutely need Professional Army. Otherwise the upgrade costs are too horrendous to want to get them to rifles.
 
Furycrab said:
Sounds solid enough, curious if it works on Deity, however it looks like if you can smash one AI before longswords start being spammed on the field it would be solid.

I def might try it this weekend :)

Please do, it would be awesome to hear if it works for others too, and if it could work on Deity!

It's just as simple to go into the Honour tree and grab the GG +Discipline. You do somewhat want the GG with the troops and not just GA pop it. +20% beats +10%. especially when you can have +30%. (Immortals effectively get to ~11 CS)

I tried this initially, but found that it wasn't really needed. It's probably different with Deity though :p What I really like with the Liberty start I used is that you can also get Chichen Itza with Meritocracy very quickly for those awesome super-long GAs. And you will gain SPs slightly faster after settling new cities.

But I've noticed that if you have an enemy that spawned within 8 tiles of you, it's actually better to do the first attack without the GA, and force them to hand you their lux. That way, you use their one-two lux to speed you into a natural GA. This is a somewhat rarer occurrence though.

I had Alex start right beside me and DoW before my first Immortal was up. After pushing back his warriors, I walked my group of 4 Immortals/scouts/etc to his closest city and he gave up the Lux. It didn't take too long to hit the GA; at which point I DoW'd and killed him.

This sounds like a great way to deal with it :) You should try the Liberty start and compare the two methods, sir Djinn :goodjob:
 
Nice, yesterday I also started a game as Darius (Deity - Small Continents). I wasn`t aiming at Immortal rush (wasn`t sure it it would work well on Deity, but a couple of factors lead to me trying. The Arabs spawned real close and my scout just got in position to steal two workers really early. I usually go for it if I can get both in that early, since I feel like it cripples the AI so much.

Also, my starting warrior got upgraded to Immortal. So, I went for the rush, but not with a lot of focus on it. So it`s definitely possible on Deity, especially if you plan from the beggining (I went writing before bronze working, just as an example of lack of focus).

Ends up I got myself 5 Immortals (bought two, build 2, plus initial warrior) and went straight into the Honor line for professional army. Arabs lost their first 4 or 5 warriors when trying to attack my capital after I stole those workers. I took two of their cities, and they gave me two more plus luxs and money for peace.

I upgraded to pikeman and attacked my other neighbours, the Chinese. I wanted a very good city they settled close to me (3 luxuries plus iron). I took it, got a neutral peace treaty, and then went back for the Arabs for their capital and one more city.

After that, the Chinese DoW`ed me back and they had a tech lead on me (because my start was pretty messed up). But I still defended up to another neutral peace treaty. I already had spammed two GG, one to go with my troops and another became a citadel that helped defense a lot.

Now I`m gonna catch up in tech with scholasticism and a lot of CS allies. Soon I`ll have immortal rifles+ cannons, I`ll upgrade on the cheap and finish the chinese and then move on to Ghandi (he also hates me so much because of all those wars).
 
As for the GA bonus, it's best to get natural GAs if you haven't completed the Steam achievement of 5 of them in a single game. When I was trying that achievement, I had well over 5 of them, because I used GGs to initiate some of them. The achievement didn't complete until my 5th natural GA started.
 
sounds solid enough.
personally when going for these early rushes i definitely prefer getting the GG from honor - it makes a huge difference. if you get lucky with two culture ruins you can have it immediately, though that's rare on emperor up (where ai start with a scout). it should time out so you get a second GG you can pop when you're moving on to second victim.

i wouldn't waste an upgrade on medic for all the immortals, you only need maybe 1 in 3 as medics at most. medic overall is less important for an immortal rush, as it still only heals 1.
 
I just remembered. If you get the Fountain of Youth on your map, it does not stack with the Immortal healing promotion. On other units it looks like the FoY gives them the exact same healing promotion Immortals have.
 
It does work on Deity pretty well. Your immortal rush just ends earlier to save your promoted units for a further ******** strong rifles rush.

I also do prefer the first rush without GA as MadDjinn/vexing pointed...or at least to not giveup so much for the GA benefits. Honor is a great pathway for this strategy as you will very likely want to have professionnal army for the rifles upgrade anyway. I'm just always torn between the 1.5 exp after taking the GG or just going straight to PA to ensure I have it before rifling pops.

Between the first rushes and rifling pop, you should delay civil services in order to get barracks+armory+HE and pump a few other decently promoted immortals. This way you can have 2 fronts of rifles at the same time and really go for a total domination (which has been made much, much harder since .275).

Well thought out/written strat. I like the chichen itza idea for darius, but I think I would still stick to pumping out more immortals to have two fronts...at least on a pangaea where I can just make chichen itza's owner my first target uppon rifling :). It is a very strong strat and the civ is also super strong for total domination due to the very early first rush, the +1 mvt somewhat controlled on offense and the +2 happiness from basically the 2nd building puppets make.

As for representation, if you build more cities than just your capital, it may be a good option although I would still probably save it for the 2nd rush...and I'm much too big a fan of professionnal army for pikes->rifles upgrades to consider liberty for that very setup.
 
i wouldn't waste an upgrade on medic for all the immortals, you only need maybe 1 in 3 as medics at most. medic overall is less important for an immortal rush, as it still only heals 1.

I'm pretty positive the double healing stacks on top of the +1 making 4hpt in hostile territory...but I might be confused with recovery after taking the city, I've been away from my comp for a week.
 
Well thought out/written strat. I like the chichen itza idea for darius, but I think I would still stick to pumping out more immortals to have two fronts...at least on a pangaea where I can just make chichen itza's owner my first target uppon rifling :).

As for representation, if you build more cities than just your capital, it may be a good option although I would still probably save it for the 2nd rush...and I'm much too big a fan of professionnal army for pikes->rifles upgrades to consider liberty for that very setup.

I generally only try for Chichen Itza as Darius when I'm going for the 100 turn GA. Otherwise, I agree... it's sometimes easier to just find the person who built it and 'repo' it.

I agree. This type of strat (Spear/Pike UUs ->Rifles) absolutely requires PA to keep the costs down.

I personally like 10 Immortals (post HE) for upgrades, since it's a nice number and if you've been overzealous on the attack, it might keep some spam knights/LSs away long enough.
 
I'm pretty positive the double healing stacks on top of the +1 making 4hpt in hostile territory...but I might be confused with recovery after taking the city, I've been away from my comp for a week.

it doesn't.
 
Welp, I guess the original strategy I posted is best suited for those who want to do a builder approach after the initial rush. For this purpose I think it works fairly well. I guess you could delay Representation to get more out of the golden age.

In my game I didn't have any money issues whatsoever by the time I had rifles. So for me(and probably on Immortal in general) it isn't "required" to have Honor+PA.

vexing do you know of any threads that discuss the Medic promotion? I always thought it was more effective than that.. so much for paying attention to amount healed every turn :lol:

Thanks for the input and comments, guys :goodjob:
 
Medic promotion is still quite worth it, just not worth giving to every unit. The medic increases healing to every nearby but not self. That being said, if you have 6 medics surrounding a wounded unit, he will still only get +1 health at the end of turn. Thus, with good strategic positionning...and obviously depending on your front line size, you definitely don't need to have medic on all of your units


A general 4-melee line would need to have both middle units with medic promotion for every unit to receive it's benefits. In a 5-unit line, if you set #2 and #4 with it, you can have either move to position 3 if the other is wounded etc and thus get moreso any unit the promotion on any turn you will have them heal.

I usually prefer having it too much than not enough but definitely try to skip "all units" with it. One can also consider using a mounted unit with the healing promotion just standing back and moving to the wounded but this takes a room for a siege unit.
 
I find that the perfect units to give "medic" to are the AA/SAM guys, and you're not even giving much up vis a vis better "late" promotions.

(This assumes your playstyle results in games that go late enough that you need those units for their main purpose, of course.)
 
Incidentally, the Greek hoplite rush is viable as well and very similar.
 
Indeed, although you should probably be a little more careful with your Hoplites since they heal slower. Also, they aren't really worth upgrading into rifles unless you have lots of gold IMO :(
 
Incidentally, the Greek hoplite rush is viable as well and very similar.

The Greek hoplites rush is very solid as well indeed. What it lacks though is an awesome unique promotion to carry through upgrades. If you only intend to leverage a game by early war & puppets, then they are probably moreso the same strength. If you carry on with war though, persia is definitely a better choice.
 
Great thread guys... and thanks Bungle for starting up this thread as I was looking for some info. and strategies for Persia. I decided to give Persia a try as well, but on warlord as I'm still a newbie.

Since the Persian UU can be obtained pretty early and GA's support aggressive play I'm considering a domination victory first. However, I'm trying to come up with the magic formula (buildings/wonders/social policies) for shortening the non-GA periods (the lull periods) and extending the GA periods. If one shortens the lull periods it would create a near continuous golden age (in theory). I'm hoping the OP and the other more experienced players can confirm or correct my theorycrafting. So far I've come up with:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Big Ugly Edit here so my misinformation doesn't spread...
The ideas listed below are based on outdated information from the original
manual which doesn't have the changes from the current patch.

MadDjinn made a post that corrects my ideas. You can find it a few posts after this one. Please follow his corrections.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Wonders
----------
- Chichen Itza (+50% GA length)
- Taj Mahal (+50% GA length)

Social Policies
---------------
- Rationalism (immediate 5-turn GA)
- Organized Religion (-25% happiness needed to trigger a GA)
- Reformation (immediate 6-turn GA)

Persian Unique Trait (UT) = +50% GA length
Persian UT + Chichen Itza + Taj Mahal = +150% GA length (the Persian Triple-Play)
Persian Triple-Play = 25-turn natural GA's
Persian Triple-Play + Rationalism SP = 12.5-turn non-natural GA (not sure about the rounding here)
Persian Triple-Play + Reformation SP = 15-turn non-natural GA

There are several happiness/unhappiness modifiers in social policies, but I'm not sure if pursuing them will mesh well with all victory conditions and specifically a domination victory (I haven't thought it through yet).

So my question are:
- Has anyone come up with the magic formula and tested it in the Prince to Diety difficulty levels?

- Did I miss anything critical to extending GA's and shortening the lull periods?

- Are there any flaws in my theorycrafting above?
 
erm, I think you're looking at some old game code.

There is a 100 turn GA thread around here somewhere, but the basics:

Persia - +50% GA length

get this first:
Chichen Itza - +50% GA length

Then do these:
Natural GAs are now 20 turns (boosted).

then add (in no particular order) -
Taj Mahal 20 turns (boosted)
Representation 20 turns (boosted - from Liberty tree)
Reformation 20 turns (boosted - from Piety tree)

after this, burn as many GPs (GGs are best) as you want to keep the GA going.
 
Back
Top Bottom