Bureaucracy: When to switch away?

[vormuir]

Bureacracy gives you +50% commerce and hammers in your capital. Sweet!

But... Bureaucracy is a medium-upkeep civic As opposed to Despotism (low upkeep), Free Speech (low upkeep) or Nationalism (no upkeep!).

Bureaucracy is wonderful in the early game, but becomes less good as your empire grows. That's because it increases upkeep costs for your whole empire while only benefiting a single city.

My totally un-scientific estimate is that Bureaucracy is definitely worthwhile if you have 10 cities or less; is probably still a good deal up to about 15 or 20 cities; and is looking pretty dubious if you get much bigger than that. At that point the upkeep differential is approaching 10 gpt or more, and you start to wonder if it's worth it.

Obviously there are some wrinkles. Bureaucracy is much more attractive if you're Organized (low-cost Civics). If you're Industrious, it can make your capital the Wonder center of the world. Other hand, if you're Philosophical, you may want to use your capital as a GP farm.

Anyway. In my games I often find myself switching to Free Speech around the beginning of the Industrial Age; the lower cost + the extra gold from Towns = worth losing the commerce and production in the capital. But I'm wondering how others find this. Thoughts?


Waldo

 

[futurehermit]

When playing a warmongering game, I switch to nationalism once either muskets or rifles come on board. Rifles are a much better draftable unit, but muskets can be helpful. It depends on my need for more/better units and also the timing of my attacks.

When playing a space-race CE game, which I do far less often, I would suggest switching to free speech when the extra commerce from the total amount of towns in your empire exceeds the extra commerce and production given by bureaucracy in your capital. Of course, you can factor in the difference in cost between these civics as well, but that tends to be more math than I care to do

 

[Nials]

For me, commerce is king.

I switch whenever I have enough towns to outweigh the benefits of Bureaucracy.

Take it with a grain of salt though as I very rarely use Nationalism.

 

[Naismith]

I've gotten burned a few times switching out of Bureaucracy too soon. Recently I decided to experiment. I save the game, switch civics, and play the next couple of turns to see the effect, and try different combos of Civics. It's cheating, but unless you want to do the math yourself, it's by far the simplest way of getting a feel for that part of the game. Given the anarchy penalty, I would never have experimented enough to find out that under certain circumstances, Representation was much more powerful than I had realized.

I rarely switch out of Bureaucracy until fairly late in the game.

 

[Dirk1302]

^^Doesn't feel like cheating to me, Unfortunately you can' t switch civics at will in the turn after the anarchy as in civIII.

I often prepare a Globe theater driven musket/rifle rush after liberalism/Nationalism so i definitely switch out when natio/globe are built. If i have captured a lot of cottaged cities or have a lot of cottages myself i switch to free speech quite soon even if the total amount of commerce is slightly smaller than under buro. The extra culture tends to be very important in the end.

 

[Ecofarm]

Pretty much only for drafting and not always with globe. (warmonger)

 

[Hero]

I usually switch out as soon as I can make a switch to Free Speech, Emancipation, Universal Suffrage and maybe Free Religion at the same time. If I'm going for a Space win, I often switch back to Bureaucracy and Organized Religion later to build Apollo and the SS parts.

 

[drkodos]

I've gotten burned a few times switching out of Bureaucracy too soon. Recently I decided to experiment. I save the game, switch civics, and play the next couple of turns to see the effect, and try different combos of Civics. It's cheating, but unless you want to do the math yourself, it's by far the simplest way of getting a feel for that part of the game.

I do not believe it is "cheating". Especially if it is done in order to learn game mechanics.


If it is a tool or strategy employed to directly increase game results without disclosure, then it would be cheating. Otherwise, it's probably the very best way to lock-down exact parameters for most of the dynamics of the game engine and the ensuing mathematics.

 

[bardolph]

The decision of Bureaucracy vs Free Speech is pretty straightforward and simple math: just count the # of towns in your empire and ask, which civic gives more ? Notice that I said count the # of towns, not cities. Your city count is totally irrelevant in this calculation. Also note that, because you will also lose , it's best to switch when Free Speech has a clear advantage, though the civ-wide bonus compensates for this somewhat.

Comparing Bureaucracy to Vassalage is a bit more tricky. If you have a high overall population and a large army, the free unit bonus from Vassalage can sometimes compare with the commerce bonus from Bureaucracy, but it's best to save Vassalage for war preparation periods.

Comparing to Nationhood is also tricky. Nationhood offers several nice advantages: (1) Zero upkeep, (2) +2 from every Barracks, and (3) Drafting. If you have a large empire, and your caps are higher than your caps, then being able to add +2 population to every city can be huge. Also, as civics get more and more expensive, you have to weigh that expense with the actual bonus you're getting from the civic. Sometimes the zero upkeep alone makes it worthwhile to switch to Nationhood.

 

[Emp. Killyouall]

The only time I would switch to nationhood would be to do a lot of Rifleman drafting in a very large empire. Other times its just not worth switching from bureaucracy. Nationhood's only great bonus (other than the no upkeep) is the ability switching out a citizen for 4? times as many hammers as whipping. While producing something else.

 

[KMadCandy]

I've gotten burned a few times switching out of Bureaucracy too soon. Recently I decided to experiment. I save the game, switch civics, and play the next couple of turns to see the effect, and try different combos of Civics. It's cheating, but unless you want to do the math yourself, it's by far the simplest way of getting a feel for that part of the game. Given the anarchy penalty, I would never have experimented enough to find out that under certain circumstances, Representation was much more powerful than I had realized.

I rarely switch out of Bureaucracy until fairly late in the game.

i had to do the "save it and compare changes" thing myself too in the beginning. i just had no feel for how the combinations would impact things. and besides, i'm a girl, i like to try things on *giggle*. cheating, i dunno, i considered it educational really. i don't do it now. sometimes i get and wish i had, i don't always make the best choices. representation, OMG ... i knew it was powerful. it wasn't until i played a game requiring myself to make no wonders at all (except the great library, it's a throne room addition) that i realized what a long road it is to constitution, ouchers!

i stay in bureaucracy a long time. i'm don't tend to be a warmonger. lately tho, i'm fighting allergies and my brain is so fried! i've been playing some quite bizarre games, and fighting odd wars, since i just can't think straight so i want unusual weird stuff. i tried nationhood. i kind of have a crush on nationhood, i'd never really tried it til last week. yesterday was "i'm spiritual + globe theatre + capital isn't doing anything crucial + cities that can grow back fast = oooooooh let's draft soldiers, i love how they show up right that second!!!!" day. hopefully i'll get over the puppy love phase when i recover from "attack of the pollen" and return to real games, where i have to use tactics and stuff.

 

[bardolph]

The only time I would switch to nationhood would be to do a lot of Rifleman drafting in a very large empire. Other times its just not worth switching from bureaucracy. Nationhood's only great bonus (other than the no upkeep) is the ability switching out a citizen for 4? times as many hammers as whipping. While producing something else.

The +2 is also huge. 2 extra citizens in every city can have a tremendous impact on your empire, if it is large.

Also, Drafting with the Globe Theater is a wonder to be seen...

 

[Hold The Onion]

What? No love for Barbarism?



actually i find myself stuck with bureaucracy a lot because my capital is often my science or production center and i lean on it so much for one of these functions that i can hardly bring myself to pull away from it. I've made an effort lately to try and use Free Speech more when the time comes along but habits are hard to break.

when i'm charismatic i run vassalage quite frequently to try and take full advantage of the trait. the other day i was Washington. with stable, barracks, vassalage, theocracy, and 2 generals i was pumping out level 5 knights. when military tradition came along i built West Point. 17xp for mounted and 15xp for non-mounted. then i was able to switch away from vassalage to Free Speech.

 

[Khanate]

I only switch to free speech, if I'm going for a culture win. If not I often stay with bureaucracy for the rest of the game.

 

[cabert]

I switch to bureaucracy asap (production bonus!) then switch out to free speech asap.
I want the culture, even if I lose a bit on the commerce.
I switch to nationhood when
1° a war is coming
and
2° I have rifling (or I am japanese or viking! drafting those special macemen is not a waste IMHO).
and
3° I have nationalism (duh!)

 

[Emp. Killyouall]

The reason I discount the 2 happiness is by the time you get nationalism, a) you should be drafting and therfore killing citizens, b) you are getting a lot of HR happiness instantly, and c) by that time in the game you shouldn't be near your happiness limit (although I usually play CE).

 

[bardolph]

The reason I discount the 2 happiness is by the time you get nationalism, a) you should be drafting and therfore killing citizens, b) you are getting a lot of HR happiness instantly, and c) by that time in the game you shouldn't be near your happiness limit (although I usually play CE).

In case you haven't noticed, drafting adds +3 , so the +2 from barracks makes a big difference whether you're drafting or not. Also, if your happiness is coming from HR, then Nationalism allows your troops to leave your cities and go to war, without needing to slide up your culture bar.

And it's not a given that you "should" be drafting. You certainly will be drafting if you're preparing for war, but even in peace time, Nationalism offers economic benefits that can sometimes outweigh Bureaucracy.