Bush to call for moon base, Mars missions

[polymath]

It's a great thing to plan for. If we don't spread our species off-planet, we are doomed in the long term.

"I would consider the launch of a similar program by the EU or by China as little more than a declaration of war. A cold war, but a war nonetheless." - Seleucus

So, what you are saying here, Seleucus, is that the US has just declared a cold war on the rest of the world? Because that is precisely the program the US have just announced. Are the EU or China or Russia now to view the US as pursuing an agressive anti-the-rest-of-world program? That's exactly what you advocate in the reverse instance.

Or, are you just talking rubbish?

I have to agree with Marla here, your little 'hegemonising swarm of Americans' idea is plain dumb. And Marla's Hitler comment is spot on, in response to what you said. What you are saying is precisely what Hitler wanted to do.

 

[SeleucusNicator]

Originally posted by polymath

So, what you are saying here, Seleucus, is that the US has just declared a cold war on the rest of the world? Because that is precisely the program the US have just announced. Are the EU or China or Russia now to view the US as pursuing an agressive anti-the-rest-of-world program? That's exactly what you advocate in the reverse instance.

Realistically, if they wished to think so, there would be nothing we could to do stop them from doing so. After all, American domination of space is not in the best self-interest of either China or Europe.

However, neither nation is in a position to seriously challenge the United States at this point

I have to agree with Marla here, your little 'hegemonising swarm of Americans' idea is plain dumb. And Marla's Hitler comment is spot on, in response to what you said. What you are saying is precisely what Hitler wanted to do.

Feel free to back up your statements with actual arguments.

 

[polymath]

"Feel free to back up your statements with actual arguments." - Seleucus

Seleucus, if you can properly substantiate your claims, i.e.

1) The U.S. can somehow establish peace through use of force (an oxymoron but I'd be glad to hear you go for it)

2) Another nation's space program trying to establish a moonbase or a manned Mars mission is equivalent to declaring war on the U.S.

or

3) Peace cannot be achieved through international co-operation

then I'll retract my claim that you are talking rubbish. The burden of making an argument is on you, not me. I'm saying that you are plain wrong.

Presumably you can counter this?

 

[Aphex_Twin]

The Martians are (not) harboring weapons of mass destruction. Just why it's such a good reason to invade

 

[Zamphyr]

Didn't Bush Sr. basically call for the same thing ? Man on Mars by 2020 ?

 

[Grille]

Originally posted by SeleucusNicator
After all, American domination of space is not in the best self-interest of either China or Europe.

You define the viewpoint of China or Europe towards an American space program (so called "domination" - whatever that means) to be not in the best interest of either China or Europe...

So is that space domination plan that evil that you would expect others beforehand to be opposed to it?

That's an easy way to make up a foe image, if you just need one for what reason ever.

However, neither nation is in a position to seriously challenge the United States at this point

Ah, is the Mars race a sport then?

hint:
cold war is over -> dismiss Sputnik complex

 

[Dr Jimbo]

Originally posted by The Yankee
I realize that. But if it were spread evenly over 20 years, that would still be $40 billion a year. About as much (if not several billion more) than the budget allocted to the Department of Homeland Security.

Well there's one source for the money. The DHS sounds like an outrageous boondoogle to fatten up corporate pals of GWB in the face of largely imagined threats.

 

[allhailIndia]

I would have been more impressed if DWB turned his interests closer to home namely OUR planet. I emphasize our because what America is doing with it senergy sources IS affecting the world.
A recent report on the BBC showed that if a family stopped using its SUV and switched to a sedan for a year, it was the equivalent of recycling 400 bottles EVERYDAY for the rest of the year. I may not have accurate stats, but i presume that the US has the largest number of SUV's in any country and this IS causing problems.
Of course no one can tell Americans to NOT use SUV's, but a little bit more responsibility in using your energy resources, may go a long way in saving the planet further destruction.
Remember, the US uses more fossil fuels than the next ten highest users in the world including India and China. Perhaps a more environmentally friendly policy on that front will augur better for the US than a "pie in the sky" MArtian dream. Or else it might as well find a way to transport ehat is left of the human race to the red planet.

 

[delsully]

Originally posted by Grille

You define the viewpoint of China or Europe towards an American space program (so called "domination" - whatever that means) to be not in the best interest of either China or Europe...

So is that space domination plan that evil that you would expect others beforehand to be opposed to it?

That's an easy way to make up a foe image, if you just need one for what reason ever.

The US is all about creating "foe images", need we look any further than Afghanistan and Iraq?

As for all this space BS, surely the US has more pressing issues at home: jobs, education, health care, energy. What purpose would a moon base serve? An excuse for scientists to look at moon rocks?

 

[carlosMM]

useless waste of money, mainly.

 

[Pirate]

I would love to see humans on the moon and mars.

That being said I am worried about Bush's declaration and think it is completely unrealistic at best and irresponsible at worst.
I worry where the funds are coming from, but money isn't everything. Bush also needs a plan to divert researchers from private enterprises, recruit new minds and bodies, and gather massive funds and other scientific resources not just from aerospace, but also medical, physics, psycological, geological and environmental fields that all need to collaborate.

Bush does not have a plan for this. He is saying "Lets go to Mars" as an attempt to unify our nations conscience and give us a sense of purpose. It is a ruse and distraction during a re-election year. With lingering uncertainty about the economy and the war on terror not going his way (in the public eye at least) Bush is quite literally pointing a finger in the sky and saying "Look! What's that!" The oldest trick in the book.

I am also worried that this will take away resources from the International Space Station which is sitting half-finished in orbit.

I am worried because a moon base will require developing new rockets to act as "moon shuttles" - a completely different project than redesigning or resurrecting the "space shuttle program.

In short, if he has a plan it is to scrap everything we are doing now. But he doesn't even have a plan, so it's all bunk anyway.

And that is a real shame.

 

[Grille]

Originally posted by delsully

The US is all about creating "foe images", need we look any further than Afghanistan and Iraq?

Well, one thing is trying to create a foe image; anoher thing is to accept an *advertised* foe image or feeling to need one at all.

As for all this space BS, surely the US has more pressing issues at home: jobs, education, health care, energy. What purpose would a moon base serve? An excuse for scientists to look at moon rocks?

I would agree here (as far as I could tell), except for the scientific part.
What scientist gets hot on the moon (if you count engineering science out here)?

 

[carlosMM]

Originally posted by Pirate
I am also worried that this will take away resources from the International Space Station which is sitting half-finished in orbit.

yuk, International! That thing has Kraut and Frog parts in it, and actual terrorist enemies from these axis of evil states

get the heck outta it, let CIA observe it and let NASA start a 'pure' American project right now, preferably with no gun control laws in the station, for protection!

 

[The Yankee]

Originally posted by Dr Jimbo

Well there's one source for the money. The DHS sounds like an outrageous boondoogle to fatten up corporate pals of GWB in the face of largely imagined threats.

You're right. I thought we already had agencies that do what the DHS is supposed to do. However, this is quite strange coming from people who rallies around security and the DHS.

While it is a nice goal, it is something that should not be a top priority at this time and that money should be put to other purposes. We can return to this idea if and when we play down the huge deficit and find some ways to pay for it without putting us further into debt.

 

[Vanadorn]

If Bush wishes to BEGIN the planning process of this venture, IE: Money, then raising public awareness/excitement, and to start the allocation of funds to this program is more than fine.

2018 people. It's a long distance away. God willing, we'll have enough of our "house" in order by then, that we can plan on going on a trip like this.

Note: WE, refers to all inhabitants of Earth, not just those here in the US, or in the West, or whatever.

Will we be off the ground by then, who knows, but the prospect of the trip is worth talking about

 

[RoddyVR]

sending people to mars is a waste. but building a moon base is definetly worthwile.

sending people to mars now would be almost as wastefull as it was to send humans to the moon 30 years ago. its not like they can do anything constructive there. their only mission is to come back alive. right now there is NOTHING a human could do on mars that a robot cant do (better), other then "become a hero".

but computers/robots and maybe eventualy some biological agents (or maybe a nuke or two) can definetly have a positive effect on mars (from a human point of view).

the moon is worth building a base on just cause it would be a platform on which to assemble the deathstars and colony ships later on.
not to mention its a great source of matter (do they have water up there?) to use to power our later space travel technologies.
and being able to throw a big rock onto the heads of disgruntled dictators would be a prety effective "diplomatic weapon" too.

 

[SeleucusNicator]

Originally posted by polymath

Seleucus, if you can properly substantiate your claims, i.e.

1) The U.S. can somehow establish peace through use of force (an oxymoron but I'd be glad to hear you go for it)

Notice I never claimed the US could establish world peace through use of force. That is a misintereptation common among those introduced to my views for the first time.

What I claim is that such peace can be brought upon by a single power controlling vast amounts of potential force. Such a power will be in a position to stabalize the world and provide for international security, much like, say, the Roman or the Mongol empires famously did, because disruptions to world order would work against its interests.

This is in contast to a multipolar world, where the various powers would invariably be working against each other, meaning that an external conflict might be encouraged by one power because it is harmful to another, thus encouraging chaos, not world peace.

2) Another nation's space program trying to establish a moonbase or a manned Mars mission is equivalent to declaring war on the U.S.

I hold that domination of outer space will be vital for anyone wishing to become a global hegemon or even a great power in the 21st century. The United States should therefore view anything that would interfere with its domination of space (such as orbiting Chinamen or European sattelites) as an indirect assault on the status of the United States, and, indeed, on world peace.

 

[carlosMM]

Originally posted by SeleucusNicator
I hold that domination of outer space will be vital for anyone wishing to become a global hegemon or even a great power in the 21st century. The United States should therefore view anything that would interfere with its domination of space (such as orbiting Chinamen or European sattelites) as an indirect assault on the status of the United States, and, indeed, on world peace. [/B]

tsk tsk, forgot to ask Schröder to have the Luftwaffe shoot those darn American satellites down that are spying in our nice German Lebensraum.....


seriously, why the heck should space belong to the US? Did you buy it from Russia for 5 million Gold dollars?

 

[Singularity]

Every major enterprize like this could seem like a big waste of money and time.

When a local village in Norway was emptied of able bodied men and huge boats where built it was probably conceived as a mad mans attempt at chasing a hasty death off the edge of the world leaving wifes and children behind in ruin. Or they could come back with tales of wonder and new experience in oceanic traveling.

On the top of my head I can list the following fields of interest that would benefit from increased aerospace research:

- Launch cost of putting objects into space.
- Mining potential exotic resources not found on earth(helium3).
- Increased defence from harmful objects on a collision course with earth.
- Zero gee research and manufacturing(nanotechnology).
- Spinoff benefits to convert space technology to 'normal' fields of use.

And then you have the more highflying science of the universe in general and the questions of where we're coming from. Where we'll be in the future and if there is anybody out there.

For all we know mars is the result of an ancient worldwar over there that extinguished their atmosphere. If so the Martians could indeed be harboring WMD in subterrain stockpiles

 

[Grille]

originally posted by SeleucusNicator:
I hold that domination of outer space will be vital for anyone wishing to become a global hegemon or even a great power in the 21st century. The United States should therefore view anything that would interfere with its domination of space (such as orbiting Chinamen or European sattelites) as an indirect assault on the status of the United States, and, indeed, on world peace.

Wow. I thought this was a discussion about a space program, but you really seem to give an insight about your out spaced full-throttle-weird worldview...


I hope you feel not indirectly assaulted when I turn on the TV to receive a satellite transmission tonight. Is that a threat to world peace? Only if you'd decide to break it.

Once you go for space domination and secure peace in that rough place, is there chance you leave Earth?
(I may even help you to get into the capsule...)