Bz3 - Always War Crusade

[betazed]

Originally posted by Stuck_As_a_Mac
Ive never been an early war mongerer. I normally wait until I've got a decent sized force before I head out and kill some one. I'm a builder by nature. Sorry for all the . Lemme open a window and turn on a fan... Should blow over.

Make sure you have a really strong exhaust fan. That's a lot of

But seriously,

I would suggest you take Nd's save again and play just for yourself again, carefully following the rules that I mentioned earlier. You will see it was not at all difficult to ward off the AI.

An early war, in most normal civ3 games (no mod rules, like AW etc. and definitely for Monarch and below, and sometimes for Emperor) gives such a huge advantage for the human player that the game can be won for all practical purposes in the ancient age itself. See Bz1 for example.

 

[Snaproll]

I guess I shouldn't mention that I played a few extra turns after my game and I got a leader and rushed the Great Library....

 

[betazed]

Originally posted by Snaproll
I guess I shouldn't mention that I played a few extra turns after my game and I got a leader and rushed the Great Library....

Ouch! Rubbing salt to our wounds, are we?

Anyway, nothings lost yet. We are still very much in the game. With a little luck (and those leaders appearing in real turns and not shadow turns ) we can still do it.

 

[Earp]

0 - 410 BC
When did we get contact with Shaka and Osman? Both are on the F4 screen.

Osman and Shaka are both up Math, Philosophy, Code of Laws, Map Making and Philosophy. They have contact with the Arabs, Persians, and Spanish. We have nothing but our WM and 26 gold to offer them.
Osman values our map more highly than Shaka.
Shaka will give us contact with the Spanish for our WM and 26 gold(but not WM and 25gold). Contact with the Persians for the same amount is 'I doubt it', contact with the Arabs is "insulted'. The cheapest civ is usually the most behind in techs. I could trade for contact with the Spanish and then maybe get a two-fer tech deal. Hmm...
Shaka will give us 22 gold for our WM. This would give us 48 gold.
Osman will give us Philosophy and Math for our WM. Or he will trade CoL for WM. MM and Poly are 'close'. MM and Poly for WM, 2 gpt, and 12 gold are still close. I think the 2 gpt = 36 gold.
Hmm...
Math is due in six turns. I would rather avoid trading for that if there are other techs we can get. Polytheism would be very nice so that we can research Monarchy.
I think I remember that SAAM sold our WM to Osman this turn and therefore I think it will lose most of its value after this turn.
Decide to trade WM and 26 gold to Zulu for contact with the Spanish hoping desperately for a 2 for one deal.
The Spanish are even more backwards than us. They even lack Masonry and Literature. They have contact with the Arabs and Persians.
Give Spain Masonry and Literature for Contact with the Persians, Arabs, and 5 gold(everything she has).
I could give her contact with the Mongols, but I think it will then have less value with the Persians and Arabs.
Persia and Arabs both have the same five techs as Osman and Shaka
If I trade for MM, I may be able to get a full World Map from Spain.
I wonder if anyone has currency or construction behind Math.
Trade to Arabia contact with Mongols and WM for Polytheism, Math, and 4 gold
Everyone but Arabia has Construction. Unfortunately, it is out of our price range.
Trade to Persia contact with Mongols and WM for CoL and Philosophy
Trade to Osman our WM for his TM and 24 gold
Set research to Monarchy.
We have one horseman and one archer.
Declare War on Spanish, Ottomans, Arabians, Persians, and Zulus.
Elite spear attacks 2/3 spear. We lose 3 hps and win.

IBT A Korean spear disconnects one of our two dyes. We only need one so I was not really worried about him.
Three Japanese warriors step out of the fog.
We reconnect horses

1 - 390 BC
Shanghai Archer --> Horseman
Beijing switched to Settler. I think we can still found at least three more towns.

IBT A vet warrior in Canton defeats an attacking reg archer and promotes to elite

2 - 370 BC
Tsingtao Horseman --> Horseman
Macao Spear --> Horse
Vet horse vs reg archer. We lose one hp and win.
Vet horse vs reg archer. We redline and retreat w/o damaging archer. I knew I shouldn't attack across the river.

IBT Vet archer vs vet spear in Canton. We lose one hp and win

3 - 350 BC
Beijing Settler --> Settler
Canton Horse --> Horse
Elite Warrior vs reg archer on forest. We lose two hps, but win.
Vet horse vs 2/3 spear. We redline, but win and promote to elite.
3/4 horse vs reg archer. We win w/o losing a hp

IBT England shows up offer us her TM for our TM and 13 gold. She is up MM and has contact with the Celts.

4 - 330 BC
Nanking Horse --> Horse
Tientsin Horse --> Horse
I give Lizzy our WM for her TM and declare war.
Vet horse vs reg archer. We lose two hps and win.
3/4 horse vs reg archer. We win w/o losing a hp and promote to elite.

5 - 310 BC
Shanghai Horse --> Horse
Found Kaifeng
There are two Japanese swordsmen and a warrior near our iron.
4/5 horse vs reg archer. We redline but win.
2/4 horse vs reg archer. We win w/o losing a hp.

6 - 290 BC
Elite horse vs reg spear. We lose two hps and win.
The assault of Hangchow begins.
Vet archer vs vet spear. We lose. spear loses two hp but promotes.
Vet archer vs vet spear. We lose. spear loses two hp
Vet horse vs 3/5 spear. We win w/o losing a hp and promote to elite.
Vet horse vs 2/4 spear. We redline spear but lose and spear promotes.
Vet horse vs 2/5 spear. We redline but take Hangchow and autoraze it.
I think we should found New Hangchow one tile SE of the ruins.

7 - 270 BC
Beijing Settler --> Settler
Elite Horse vs reg spear. We lose two hp and win
3/5 horse vs reg spear. We redline and retreat.

IBT Celts give us MM and TM for Math and Poly. We declare war on him.
2/3 archer vs 3/5 spear. Archer redlines and we die.
Nanking Horse --> Horse
Tsingtao Horse --> Horse
Chengdu Horse --> Horse
Elite Horse vs reg archer. We redline but win
Elite Warrior vs reg archer. We win w/o losing a hp
Vet horse vs reg archer. We lose one hp and promote to elite
Vet horse vs 1/3 archer. We win w/o losing a hp and promote to elite

8 - 250 BC
Shanghai Horse -->Horse
Red Dot Walls--> Barracks
Elite Horse vs reg archer. We win w/o losing a hp
Elite Warrior vs reg archer. We redline but win
4/5 horse vs reg archer. We win after losing one hp
Vet horse vs reg spear. We lose w/o taking a single hp off spear
Vet horse vs reg spear. We win after losing one hp and promote to elite

9 - 230 BC
Canton Horse --> Horse
Elite horse vs reg archer. we lose one hp and win.
New Hangchow founded.
3/5 horse vs reg archer. We redline and win.

IBT We lose a spearman defending Red Dot.

10 - 210 BC
Red Dot is surrounded by Japanese troops and looks doomed. The workers and settler N of red dot are trying to retreat and escape

I had lots of elite victories, but no leaders. Everyone and their brother is working on the great library.

The SAVE

 

[betazed]

First a picture of the scenario.

Analysis follows.

 

[betazed]

I have played some 13 turns, fishing for a leader. None appeared although I counted 12 elite victories.

Status report:-

first the good news (a) Iron is connected. and (b) We have settled two more cities Paoting and Yangchow. (c) Inspite of the precarious position of Red Dot when I started the game I did not lose it.

Unfortunately, thats all the good news.

Now, the bad news.

(a) Everybodys has been building Sun Tzu for quite a few turns. So they are in a new age. Nothing serious about that. Just a fact.

(b) Arabia has just finished the TGL. Which means we have to research all of our techs.

(c) We just do not have enough forces to ward off threats on both the light blue circle (Mongols) and the red circle (Japan). So I took the decision to converge most of our forces to the red circle to save our iron. Offered just enough resistance at blue circle so that forces do not break the line over there and pore into our core. Unfortunately while red circle is secured (for the time, Japs are moving in with swords) we are going to lose blue circle.

(d) There is a continuous stream of onesies and twosies landing in the purple ellipse. I have been taking them out with elite horses at Kaifeng and Anyang. That ties up at least three horses there.

(e) Mongols landed just one piddly regular sword in the black circle. the RNG Gods were upset with me. Two elite horses died attacking that sword. We are not going to lose any city there but I have to move forces from the frontline to attack that sword to stop him from pillaging roads, which he will otherwise do. By the way that road is our road for iron. And we have no workers even nearby to rebuild that road.

(f) Since iron is connected we could build swords. However, it would take eons to build them and get them to the front line.

(g) We have so many unimproved tiles being worked that it is not even funny.

(h) We have hardly any workers to do the necessary improvement. I just barely managed to connect Yangchow and Paoting and create a raod between New Hangchow and Yangchow so that it does not cross a river.

(i) Now that we are seeing swords, it is becoming clear how ineffective horses are against swords. They have same attack and defense and thus we will start to lose horses. I have lost 3 horses in the last 13 turns (two of those in the last turn itself). Oh, and by the way, we are not seeing swords but rather sword stacks. Have a nice day!

More analysis and thoughts will follow. The save

 

[Belisar]

Originally posted by betazed


(b) Arabia has just finished the TGL. Which means we have to research all of our techs.

A very difficult situation. Spending money on research instead of upgrading and rushing will hurt you immensely.
Now you are really up for a challenge...
I wish you good luck, you guys will need it.

 

[Snaproll]

Arabia has just finished the TGL. Which means we have to research all of our techs.

Ouch.

(c) We just do not have enough forces to ward off threats on both the light blue circle (Mongols) and the red circle (Japan). So I took the decision to converge most of our forces to the red circle to save our iron. Offered just enough resistance at blue circle so that forces do not break the line over there and pore into our core. Unfortunately while red circle is secured (for the time, Japs are moving in with swords) we are going to lose blue circle.

We may have actually expanded a little faster than we should have - We may have to sacrifice Tatung for now. I believe once we do that we can secure our southeastern border much more easily. I agree that our iron is more important.

We have hardly any workers to do the necessary improvement.

Probably time to swith Beijing from settlers to workers.

Since iron is connected we could build swords. However, it would take eons to build them and get them to the front line.

Now that we are seeing swords, it is becoming clear how ineffective horses are against swords.

We probably need to start building some swords of our own afterall.

Ok, I see the game, but I just got to work so it will be awhile before I can play (12 hours or so). We are in a tough position. I think we can survive. We need to just hold on until riders and hope we can make some gains after that. There are still some more civs to contact, and I think that will be happening soon, so hopefully we can get some trading going, although they will probably all be ahead of us and unwilling to trade. And of course, they will all start dropping more swords off after we meet them!

 

[NewDestroyer]

I just had an idea, but i don't know if its allowed. the turn we met shaka we could have made an embassy and somehow get them to declare war on korea and japan, but idk if thats a legal move.
1 question, do u guys care if we raze cities?

 

[betazed]

Ok. Here are some more thoughts on just what we are up for. But before I continue let me first post a caveat.

I am not giving up. The AI has to pry the keys to the gates of my last city from my dead hands before it declares victory.

So here goes.

Grim as the situation is above it actually gets grimmer.

Assume that we learn monarchy (7 turns) , revolt (6 turns), learn construction (20 turns at least running the luxes that we will have to run), currency (20 turns), Fedudalism (25 turns). Assume that we suffer no more loses in cities etc. till then. In those 78 turns the AI will have definitely known Chivalry for a long time (at this point they are at most 2 techs away from it). So even before we get to MDI we will be seeing Samurai ( 4 offense and 4 defense) and Mongol Keshiks. IIRC, keshiks can move over mountains as if they were level terrain right? So they will descend on our iron city. And woe be to us if we lose our only iron. Also, at that point of time Mongols and Japanese will also hit their GAs. So you can expect a swarm of Sams and Keshiks.

But let us assume that we fight off Samurai and Keshiks with swords.

We research Monotheism (25 turns) ,Chivalry (25 turns) and get to riders. It is safe to assume that within the 128 turns from now to riders the AI will be close to MT (if not already into the Industrial age). So our riders will face muskets for defense (defends as good as the riders attack) and cavalry for offense. I can just imagine how much damage our riders will inflict on them.

But let us assume that we destroy everybody in our continent with riders and not research anything else hoping to capture the GL to catch up in tech (our only hope).

However, the GL is on another continent, not to mention we do not even know exactly where, since it is in Arabia's capital and we do not have the map. And I cannot figure out a way on how we are going to get the GL by transporting riders across oceans in galleys, landing and fighting away cavalry and defeating infantries (because by that time the AI will have infantry or very optimistically rifleman).

Thoughts? Comments?

 

[NewDestroyer]

lol its looking pretty bad. we gotta take out korea and fast.

 

[Arathorn]

I'll make a few comments.

1. It is possible to defeat AWE without the Great Library. I know this for a fact, because I have done it. Granted, it was vanilla Civ3, not PTW, but the difference isn't that great, IMHO.

2. Your research estimates are way too high. Getting a GL for a FP will help immensely. Plus, you'll get your GA at some point, helping with research times. Also, you'll be researching @ last, which is really a significant benefit. Keeping up CAN be done.

3. Where are the catapults???? You need a bunch of them to knock down the approaching sword's health, so that your horsies have a better than 50% chance of killing them. Artillery are a huge must in AW and I'm seeing no mention of them, no pictures of them being built, nothing. Catapults and defense-by-offense, even with inferior units, can give a good player ~8:1 casualty rates, in defending his/her territory. You'll need kill rates like that for a while to survive.

4. The AI is actually fairly poorly programmed, when it comes to AW. They don't build as much infrastructure as they could/should and their research really suffers for it. Expect the tech pace to be between Regeant and Monarch level, which is slow enough that you can mostly keep up and don't get TOO far behind (no riders vs. infantry, in all likelihood). Civs on other continents do better with this, though.

5. WORKERS! Where are they? I know you guys are industrious but the four workers visible on the last screen shot (is that all you have?) are FAR FAR too few. You need to be working all improved tiles.

6. Good luck!

7. Like the attitude of prying the keys from your dead fingers. You'll need it. AWE is tough and a bit of early and some bad luck can make it even moreso.

Arathorn

 

[Earp]

Originally posted by betazed
I have played some 13 turns, fishing for a leader. None appeared although I counted 12 elite victories.

I think I had ten elite victories during my turns. Where do we want to build our FP? I think our first leader should be used to rush that. Are there any wonders available?

Originally posted by betazed
Inspite of the precarious position of Red Dot when I started the game I did not lose it.

How did you manage to not lose Red Dot? I was sure it was going to be taken. I was considering using some of the workers as decoys.

Originally posted by betazed
We have so many unimproved tiles being worked that it is not even funny.

We have hardly any workers to do the necessary improvement. I just barely managed to connect Yangchow and Paoting and create a raod between New Hangchow and Yangchow so that it does not cross a river.

Originally posted by Snaproll
Probably time to swith Beijing from settlers to workers.

I agree that we need to build some workers. We should try to get Beijing to 5 fpt and 5 spt and build a worker every two turns.

I agree with all of betazed and Snaproll’s observations and thoughts.

Originally posted by NewDestroyer
I just had an idea, but i don't know if its allowed. the turn we met shaka we could have made an embassy and somehow get them to declare war on korea and japan, but idk if thats a legal move.

When I inherited the turn, we did not have enough gold to create an embassy. Shaka showed disdain for our WM, and we basically had nothing he was interested in. Interesting idea though.

Originally posted by NewDestroyer
1 question, do u guys care if we raze cities?

I don’t have a problem with razing cities. Some cities you want to raze and some you want to capture.

Originally posted by betazed
I am not giving up. The AI has to pry the keys to the gates of my last city from my dead hands before it declares victory.

Me too. I am not a quitter.

Originally posted by betazed
But let us assume that we destroy everybody in our continent with riders and not research anything else hoping to capture the GL to catch up in tech (our only hope).
However, the GL is on another continent, not to mention we do not even know exactly where, since it is in Arabia's capital and we do not have the map. And I cannot figure out a way on how we are going to get the GL by transporting riders across oceans in galleys, landing and fighting away cavalry and defeating infantries (because by that time the AI will have infantry or very optimistically rifleman).

I think it would be impossible for us to capture the GL. If we did somehow manage the impossible, with our current string of luck, someone would probably discover Education the turn before we capture it.

Originally posted by NewDestroyer
lol its looking pretty bad. we gotta take out korea and fast.

I think we just need to try to hold on until Riders.

Thanks for your comments Arathorn

I especially like the points about catapults and workers. I posted earlier about our need to use combined arms to be able to successfully defend against the hordes that will be descending upon us. IMO, we need catapults, horses, and swords, and we need to all understand how to use the combination of the three effectively. We can never have too many workers and we can never have too many catapults. So lets start building catapults and workers.

 

[betazed]

Originally posted by Earp

I think it would be impossible for us to capture the GL. If we did somehow manage the impossible, with our current string of luck, someone would probably discover Education the turn before we capture it.
[/B]

Although, for this game it is immaterial, it does not matter whether any of the other civs learn Education or not. As long as we do not learn education by the time we capture TGL we are good. It is theoritically possible to go from Middle ages to the Space Age in one turn.

In fact in one game I was following they went from Middle ages to Industrial ages in one turn (23 techs, IIRC).

 

[Earp]

IMO, we need to MM each city every turn and have a strategy for producing units.
We need to build Swordsmen, Horsemen, Catapults, and Workers.
Swordsmen and Horses cost 30 shields. Use high shield per turn cities to produce Swordsmen and Horses. Produce Swordmen in cities near the front and Horsemen in cities towards the rear.
Workers cost 10 shields and a pop point. Use med/high food per turn, low shield per turn cities to produce Workers.
Catapults cost 20 shields. Use low food per turn, low shield per turn cities to produce catapults.

Here is what I posted earlier about combined arms:

Is everyone familiar with how to effectively use combined arms? We will be fending off many more units than we have ourselves and an effective defense will be a key to our survival. Here is my understanding of combined arms. Attack a stack of defenders initially with catapults(if available). Use swordsmen next until only one defender is left. Take out the last defender with a horseman and then move the horseman back to safety. The idea is to try to leave as few units as possible exposed to AI counterattacks. At the beginning of each turn, you have to evaluate the threats and determine which attackers you want to take out.

 

[Snaproll]

We also need to consider building libraries in our core cities...

 

[NewDestroyer]

this ain't over, hang in guys

 

[betazed]

Originally posted by Snaproll
We also need to consider building libraries in our core cities...

Earp's plan looks nice. However, I too was wondering when we will build infrastructure. I was able to jam in two temples during my turns. Did not start libraries since I was always hoping for a leader. However, now that we have to self-research we need to build those libraries.

When I started this game I was hoping to build infrastructure in the core, military in the first ring and barracks and walls in the front line. However, now everything is front line.

 

[NewDestroyer]

are we allowed to use queus?

 

[Snaproll]

I agree with Arathorn - I don't think we are in quite as bad shape as you suggested, Betazed. (Not to say we are doing well). The AI isn't very good at always war (I make this statement based on reports of other games, not personal experience), and it won't research as fast as other games, or build much infrastructure. This is really what makes AW possible, I think. I think that libraries need to come sooner rather than later, as this will help us do our own research. If we can get riders and get another core with a FP using them, we may be able to hang on.

The other AWE SG on these forums used a small map with less than the maximum number of civs. This allowed them to get a bigger empire. The Deity AW game the player had his nearest neighbor weakened by an early war with another rival, allowing room for expansion. We have had neither of these things, and no great leaders, which is unfortunate. We are having some bad luck.

I don't mean to dismiss the current situation as bad luck - we have definately made some bad moves and we are more inexperienced than the rosters on those other games.

@ Newdestroyer - No, we can't. It is contrary to the spirit of a SG, in my opinion.