ZzarkLinux, I don't think anyone will really argue your point about finishing the game faster in terms of game date. But, did you notice that I started talking about spaceship finish times or *diplomatic* finish times? Did you notice that the original post talked about military advantages? Did you see the emphasis on beakers and science production? Of course C2C will help one get the game over with quicker in terms of finish date (though not necessarily playing time). I've never won a Civ 3 game by conquest or domination, but having used smallpox in Civ 2 AND realizing the production advantages of C2C it almost smacks me in the face that one can almost always have a faster finish date if one goes for the domination condition or massive "map control" as you dubbed it. Sure, "map control" can make a 20k game easier to control... but then again, if I remember correctly, certain types of wars actually halve the cultural rate of your potential 20k city... you certainly don't want that to happen much in a 20k game. Beelining military tradition and going out like a warmonger consits of just ONE way of winning civ 3. And if you check your hall of fame score you can even see that the game puts cultural vs. diplomatic vs. spaceship in different sorts of categories. XOTMs recognize different types of victories differently and give different awards for each of them. So, try to realize more exists to playing civ III than like a warmonger who beelines to military tradition and kills. "90% of games are "won" before sanitation or Shakespears come into play." Some 60% of those games probably get played by warmongers. The other 30% come as played at a difficulty (without creative handicaps) well below a player's ability where the player, of course, dominates the game. I don't think anyone disputes your point here really... I DO think you've entirely missed the points of what metro advocates have here tried to argue. [And of course, apply this at all difficulties for non-spaceship games.] It certainly won't apply for histographic victories... as even if C2C works out better since you can control the flow of the game early on... you'll still have DOZENS AND DOZENS of later-game "builder" turns if you kill off most of the AIs early. Sure enough, the HoF histographic games I've seen on Sid use a tight spacing... but if you look through the log of say SirPleb's game you'll find him talking about "milking" and unlike a warmonger he starts building all sorts of city improvements after a while. Sure enough, Moonsinger did the same at some point. More cavalry won't help you here. Also, if you haved enabled ONLY the "wonder" condition and play on harder levels the game certainly won't end before you or the AI builds the last wonder and all that matters comes as the histograph. Interestingly enough in COTM48 I didn't even really research techonology or have all that much going until the end of the middle ages. I certainly didn't pass the AIs in the histograph until the late industrial age. Did the game end before then and I lost since I trailed in the histograph??? I feel sure enough I could have won diplomatically also. Would the game have ended before I built the U.N.? [And here's the best CXXXXC vs. CXXC diagram I could come up with.] This sort of silly digram indicates why I wanted to talk about "metros" vs. "cities". What thoughtful player spaces their cities like this when terrain suggets a tighter spacing in some spots and a wider spacing in some other spots? Look... the *relevant* discussion focuses on *fewer* metros which DO get hospitals and lots of city improvements and can usually get to at least 15 at minimum, if not MUCH, MUCH larger (like 35 or 40) vs. a bunch of cities that don't get past size 12 in the city spacing debate. "Also, I remind people that if you aren't winning your (non-spaceship non-variant non-sid) games by the end of the middle ages, you're doing something wrong." Yes... that's right... if you simply don't beeline to military tradition and go out and conquer you simply don't do things wrong. If you intentionaly have ONE METRO-ready city in the middle ages for Shake's, because you've decided to go for a 20k game... you've done thigns wrong. If you haven't won your 100k game by the time of steam power... you've done things wrong. Forget the fact that culture needs time to add up. If you still have to manage the AI's attitude towards you and/or repair your reputation/get alliances/figure out who will oppose you in the U.N. elections or just keep the peace and race through the industrial techs to secure the U.N. and get your votes for a diplomatic victory you've done something wrong. If you haven't won a demi-god or deity game histographically for a "final wonder built" condition game by the end of the middle ages, you've done something wrong... who cares if that comes out as literally impossible since the wonder condition game doesn't end until all of the Manhattan Project, Cure for Cancer, Longevity, SETI, and The Internet get built (did I miss one?). Who cares that you can more easily build those *heavy* shield wonders in a metro than a city??? Seriously... here's 25 gold... go buy a clue from Xerxes or something. Meisen, [There is also no reason why a city or metro can not use scientist specialists.] Of course. Why didn't I figure this in? I almost always have at least 6 specialists in most of my massively irrigated metros. And it usually works as somewhat easy to get fast growth for a metro once you have a hospital... especially if you irrigate everything, as if you have 4 food per worked square for grassland (irrigation and railroaded), one more square worked... say from growing to size 14 to 15... means that you get two extra food in the production box. An extra plain worked means you have an extra food in the production box for size 15 over size 14. Specialist farms simply can't grow anything close to the 1 to 3 turn growth rate which happens often during the age of hospitals at any point in their life. This doesn't make metros better as sure enough they have other disadvantages as pointed out more pollution, more improvements needed, fewer tiles worked early on (the biggest problem as I see it)... but they have their advantages too.