Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Thunderbrd has a point, but I think option 1 is the better of the two suggested.
C2C - Buildings Discussion
- Thread starter EldrinFal
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EldrinFal
King
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I'm on the fence. I was leaning to 1 thinking that I wouldn't want the AI falling into a negative espionage pit, leaking secrets to everyone else, but I guess THAT could be corrected too.
Offhand I don't ever recall seeing a negative research or culture, so I rather keep it in tune with those.
Given the mixed view, and the fact that the root cause is being adjusted anyway, I'm just going with (1) because it's easy to do, and robust in th sense that you never need to worry about what happens when the global amount stored goes negative (which could have far wider implications all over the code)
Option 1 (if I have a say).
Reasoning 1. Basically because it's weird having a city with negative espionage, aka espionage GIVEN to other civs. It should be the civ itself that generates espionage against other nation, not the other way round.
Reasoning 2. Having -espionage in several cities counteract a specialized espionage city reduces the possibility of having specialized cities when it comes to Espionage.
Con reasoning: Being able to build lots of +gold -espionage buildings in any city gives a lot of gold for no negative effects. Possibly for balancing issues set the +gold to a quarter or fifth of what it is now if no negative espionage is set.
Cheers
Reasoning 1. Basically because it's weird having a city with negative espionage, aka espionage GIVEN to other civs. It should be the civ itself that generates espionage against other nation, not the other way round.
Reasoning 2. Having -espionage in several cities counteract a specialized espionage city reduces the possibility of having specialized cities when it comes to Espionage.
Con reasoning: Being able to build lots of +gold -espionage buildings in any city gives a lot of gold for no negative effects. Possibly for balancing issues set the +gold to a quarter or fifth of what it is now if no negative espionage is set.
Cheers
little_cyclone
Loyal Civ4 & C2C mod player
But is this espionage given to other civ's, or just that you aren't producing it as much? I realize it may seem like Toe-may-toe/Toe-mah-toe, but just because I may have a negative espionage level in a city doesn't necessarily mean I'm more susceptible to espionage, the AI still has to allocate resources to take advantage of it. It just means my espionage is that much more bereft because of it
I think Option 1 is probably the easiest, and I'd have to concur with a previous poster that there isn't any negative research effects at this point, giving us an established history of this method, but Option 2 may be more dynamic in being able to reduce your overall espionage across the board, and not just in the one city.
In the end I went for option (2) after all, mostly because it was easier to do, but also because it avoids the exploitative behaviour of piling all your negative espionage buildings into one city and taking no net hit because that city would not produce negative espionage, so your civ-wide totals wouldn't be greatly effected.
More controversially I have extended the behaviour to ALL commerce types (gold, reserach, culture, espionage). This has no effect at all on culture or research with current assets (because we have no buildings that produce negative culture or negative beakers currently). However with espionage and gold it removes the counter-intuitive (and unintended) cases where commerce modifiers make negative situations worse (intelligence agencies making your espionage MORE negative, banks making your gold MORE negative, and so on). Thus an N% modifier now works as +N% on positive base, or inversely on a negative modifer (acting as a reduction there).
More controversially I have extended the behaviour to ALL commerce types (gold, reserach, culture, espionage). This has no effect at all on culture or research with current assets (because we have no buildings that produce negative culture or negative beakers currently). However with espionage and gold it removes the counter-intuitive (and unintended) cases where commerce modifiers make negative situations worse (intelligence agencies making your espionage MORE negative, banks making your gold MORE negative, and so on). Thus an N% modifier now works as +N% on positive base, or inversely on a negative modifer (acting as a reduction there).
little_cyclone
Loyal Civ4 & C2C mod player
My next question is, will the AI realize its making itself more vulnerable via putting its espionage into the red by constructing this building in all/most of its cities? My worry is it won't, & will then jack up its espionage levels to obscene amounts to try & compensate, at the cost of reducing culture/gold/science & end up getting itself so far behind it permanently relegates itself to 3rd world status..
It likely needs more tweaking eventually, but this way is BETTER for the AI than the unrestricted negatives that were made worse by modifiers that was the case before this change. I'll probably tweak the AI further in V19 however.
Sleeeper
Warlord
Same thing with buildings having negative gold/hammer/culture values.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Here and I thought I'd lost this debate... lol 
While River Port and it's subsequent paths were discussed I do have a slight issue with them:
River Port is replaced by River Authority. That's good.
River Authority requires a Courthouse to be built. That's good too.
River Port requires a city with 6 population. Good.
River Authority requires a city with 6 population. Not sure that's alright because
Courthouse requires a city with 13 population.
This means that pop 6 through 12 cities can't have River anything once Guilds (now, was Insurance) has been researched. This is not good.
As River Authority is basically a larger and better version of River Port and replaces it anyway I suggest that River Port goes obsolete at the SAME time as River Authority, not before.
Cheers.
River Port is replaced by River Authority. That's good.
River Authority requires a Courthouse to be built. That's good too.
River Port requires a city with 6 population. Good.
River Authority requires a city with 6 population. Not sure that's alright because
Courthouse requires a city with 13 population.
This means that pop 6 through 12 cities can't have River anything once Guilds (now, was Insurance) has been researched. This is not good.
As River Authority is basically a larger and better version of River Port and replaces it anyway I suggest that River Port goes obsolete at the SAME time as River Authority, not before.
Cheers.
climat
King
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Or make Courthouse require 6 population?
@Hydro
I'm planning to change this. What do you think?
1) Understood... not wanting to pull open the civopedia leads to shortcuts in the way I need to express things sometimes
@Hydro
I'm planning to change this. What do you think?
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
I will just make the courthouse require city size 6 then. No biggy.
Wait what are you changing? I don't understand what was wrong.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
What do you want it changed to?
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
But Grocer goes obsolete at refrigeration. It goes ...
Barter Post -> Bazaar -> Market -> Grocer -> Trading Post -> Supermarket -> Shopping District -> Mall -> Hypermarket
Barter Post
Req Tech: Barter
Obsolete: Currency
Bazaar
Req Tech: Trade
Obsolete: Guilds
Market
Req Tech: Currency
Obsolete: Mercantilism
Grocer
Req Tech: Guilds
Obsolete: Refrigeration
Trading Post
Req Tech: Mercantilism
Obsolete: Manufacturing
Supermarket
Req Tech: Refrigeration
Obsolete: Globalization
Shopping District
Req Tech: Manufacturing
Obsolete: Plastic Electronics
Mall
Req Tech: Globalization
Obsolete: -
Hypermarket
Req Tech: Plastic Electronics
Obsolete: -
I hope you see the pattern here.
Do you think I should make it just like houses and they never go obsolete? They just get upgraded?
climat
King
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I think that would be better for market and later buildings.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@climat
Ok I pushed that to the SVN.
Ok I pushed that to the SVN.
with Biology? Hmm..Similar threads
