C2C: Hunters, Healers and Recon Units

I've been asked to write up my current issues with the Health Care promotions as they currently stand. This is going to be a little long, so bear with me.

The current Health Care promotions chain is:
  • Herbal Cures (Healer and up)
  • Medic 1 (Apothecary/Monk and up)
  • Medic 2 (Surgeon and up)
  • Medic 3 (Hospital Ship/Ambulance and up)
  • Heal (Medic and up)

All of these promotions are limited to Health Care class units only. Shaolin Monks and a Humanitarian leader's Recon units can be granted Medic I only, and Great Doctor, Ngai Missionary, and Supply Train start with Heal. It looks like a unit can get any promotion for free through its own XML or leader traits, but a building-granted free promotion has to go on a legal unit. (Look at the Combat I promotion on Flavian Amphiteatre.)

There are two problems that I see with these limitations.

Problem 1: Red Cross/Incubation Center grant redundant promotions.

Red Cross grants the Medic 1 promotion. By the time you are able to build Red Cross, the Health Care units you are building will have Medic 1 automatically. The same thing is true of the Incubation Center and its Heal promotion.

Problem 2: Heal promotions that don't do anything.

I tested it myself, and Heal is a SELF-healing promotion. It does not affect the healing rate of any other unit. So Great Doctor and Ngai Missionary can't use the Heal promotion at all (because they have no combat strength) and Supply Train can barely use it (its Strength is 3, so it's likely to be destroyed in combat by any other unit).

Suggestions:
  1. Remove the Heal promotion from Ngai Missionary.
  2. Change the Heal promotion on Supply Train to Medic 1 or remove it.
  3. Decide if you want Great Doctor to be a healer unit. The problem with this is that the Great Doctor is going to be limited to its initial promotions. Whatever level of Medic it has will mark the point when it becomes obsolete (unless it has a special Medic IV promotion?). Example: If Great Doctor has Medic II, then it becomes obsolete as a healer once Surgeons can be promoted to Medic III.
  4. Change Heal to an all-units promotion. I think changing the prerequisite to Combat III would work.
  5. Red Cross needs one of two changes. Either change Heal as I suggested and change Red Cross to Heal, or open Medic I to nearly all unit classes and leave Red Cross alone. If you require Medic I to have Herbal Cures, then normal units won't be able to promote to it but Red Cross could grant it.
 
I've been asked to write up my current issues with the Health Care promotions as they currently stand. This is going to be a little long, so bear with me.

The current Health Care promotions chain is:
  • Herbal Cures (Healer and up)
  • Medic 1 (Apothecary/Monk and up)
  • Medic 2 (Surgeon and up)
  • Medic 3 (Hospital Ship/Ambulance and up)
  • Heal (Medic and up)

All of these promotions are limited to Health Care class units only. Shaolin Monks and a Humanitarian leader's Recon units can be granted Medic I only, and Great Doctor, Ngai Missionary, and Supply Train start with Heal. It looks like a unit can get any promotion for free through its own XML or leader traits, but a building-granted free promotion has to go on a legal unit. (Look at the Combat I promotion on Flavian Amphiteatre.)

There are two problems that I see with these limitations.

Problem 1: Red Cross/Incubation Center grant redundant promotions.

Red Cross grants the Medic 1 promotion. By the time you are able to build Red Cross, the Health Care units you are building will have Medic 1 automatically. The same thing is true of the Incubation Center and its Heal promotion.

Problem 2: Heal promotions that don't do anything.

I tested it myself, and Heal is a SELF-healing promotion. It does not affect the healing rate of any other unit. So Great Doctor and Ngai Missionary can't use the Heal promotion at all (because they have no combat strength) and Supply Train can barely use it (its Strength is 3, so it's likely to be destroyed in combat by any other unit).

Suggestions:
  1. Remove the Heal promotion from Ngai Missionary.
  2. Change the Heal promotion on Supply Train to Medic 1 or remove it.
  3. Decide if you want Great Doctor to be a healer unit. The problem with this is that the Great Doctor is going to be limited to its initial promotions. Whatever level of Medic it has will mark the point when it becomes obsolete (unless it has a special Medic IV promotion?). Example: If Great Doctor has Medic II, then it becomes obsolete as a healer once Surgeons can be promoted to Medic III.
  4. Change Heal to an all-units promotion. I think changing the prerequisite to Combat III would work.
  5. Red Cross needs one of two changes. Either change Heal as I suggested and change Red Cross to Heal, or open Medic I to nearly all unit classes and leave Red Cross alone. If you require Medic I to have Herbal Cures, then normal units won't be able to promote to it but Red Cross could grant it.

OK, I am back so I can look into this.

The Great Doctor is just like a Great Scientist not like a Great general/Commander, at the moment. Although that would be an interesting idea also.

I think we need more types of healing. Currently they are all generic human healing which apply to everything else as well. Maybe we need an "engineer" tag/promotion which heals siege units 10% faster or a "veterinarian" tag/promotion that heals all mounted and animal units faster.

I'm also, and I apologize if this has been mentioned, a little frustrated with having no early repair boats!

Just put a healer in the boat and it will be healed what is so difficult about that?:mischief: As far as I can see there were no early repair boats.
 
@Vokarya I am making the suggested changes and am about to test them.

@HydromancerX please change the free promotion on BUILDINGCLASS_RED_CROSS from PROMOTION_MEDIC1 to PROMOTION_HEAL. Thanks.
 
So what unit(s) are anti-Hunter, Recon and/or Healer? Or should there be no anti units to those groups?

Well... you know my opinion on this from previous discussions ;) Trained (NOT wild) Animals and fast Mounted units would be Anti-Recon as I feel that Recon units should be much weaker than they currently are but extremely strong at withdrawal, counterable by the faster units.

Hunters would become the hunted by Rogue types.

And otherwise, they'd both be fairly hard pressed to be very effective against any Melee or Gunpowder unit as these units represent a mass of soldiers rather than a small band, which both Recon and Hunters would represent.
 
Related to all this - an explorer unit between scout and explorer would be nice. This gap has a particularly painful effect on the AI, which will continue to build lots of scouts throughout this period. I can address this behavior in the AI logic (basically telling it not to look for a primarily exploration unit, just one it can use in that role - ie - don't worry as much as it currently does about the better results from huts property), but it would be easier to just slot a unit into this gap somewhere.
 
Related to all this - an explorer unit between scout and explorer would be nice. This gap has a particularly painful effect on the AI, which will continue to build lots of scouts throughout this period. I can address this behavior in the AI logic (basically telling it not to look for a primarily exploration unit, just one it can use in that role - ie - don't worry as much as it currently does about the better results from huts property), but it would be easier to just slot a unit into this gap somewhere.

Do you have any graphics in mind? Also any idea on which tech?
 
Do you have any graphics in mind? Also any idea on which tech?

The only problem i am having lately is the lack of good units, i believe that scouts/Hunters/Explorers, should not be your first line of defense, but thats what the AI is building instead of the LOWER str units Brute/Warrior/Stone Warrior etc, which are kind of useless against the Hunters and Explorers, especially the Tracker, which is the best unit at that time. just weird IMHO.
 
Could call the unit a Trailblazer. I don't know the techtree intimately enough to suggest a tech though.

SO said:
The only problem i am having lately is the lack of good units, i believe that scouts/Hunters/Explorers, should not be your first line of defense, but thats what the AI is building instead of the LOWER str units Brute/Warrior/Stone Warrior etc, which are kind of useless against the Hunters and Explorers, especially the Tracker, which is the best unit at that time. just weird IMHO.
This is one reason I believe recon should be much less powerful but very strong at withdrawal (presuming we generally use the defensive withdrawal option it'd make sense. The unit is better at getting away from danger than facing it head on.)
 
Could call the unit a Trailblazer. I don't know the techtree intimately enough to suggest a tech though.


This is one reason I believe recon should be much less powerful but very strong at withdrawal (presuming we generally use the defensive withdrawal option it'd make sense. The unit is better at getting away from danger than facing it head on.)

They DO need to be (defensively) strong agains animals though.
 
Wild animals yes... but I think that against Trained Animals should not be quite as strong and such animals should have promo options that can allow them to make meat of recon units as they can be trained on how to counteract the mobility and weaponry of the recon unit.
 
I am sorry but I know this has been brought up before but I don't recall the answer. Why's the Surgeon better hat healing than the Medic? Even though the Surgeon upgrades into the Medic.

Healer -> Apothecary -> Surgeon -> Medic -> Ambulance (WWI) -> Ambulance (WWII) -> Medevac Helicopter -> Medevac Modern Helicopter -> Medevac Dropship

Healer
Strength: 2
Speed: 2
Disease Per Turn (City): -5
Disease Per Turn (Plot): -3

Apothecary
Strength: 5
Speed: 2
Disease Per Turn (City): -10
Disease Per Turn (Plot): -5

Surgeon
Strength: 7
Speed: 2
Disease Per Turn (City): -20
Disease Per Turn (Plot): -10

Medic
Strength: 8
Speed: 2
Disease Per Turn (City): -15
Disease Per Turn (Plot): -8

Ambulance (WWI)
Strength: 15
Speed: 4
Disease Per Turn (City): -25
Disease Per Turn (Plot): -13

Ambulance (WWII)
Strength: 25
Speed: 4
Disease Per Turn (City): -35
Disease Per Turn (Plot): -18

Medevac Helicopter
Strength: 50
Speed: 4
Disease Per Turn (City): -40
Disease Per Turn (Plot): -20

Medevac Modern Helicopter
Strength: 60
Speed: 5
Disease Per Turn (City): -55
Disease Per Turn (Plot): -23

Medevac Dropship
Strength: 120
Speed: 7
Disease Per Turn (City):-50
Disease Per Turn (Plot):-25

Seems to me the Disease Per Turn for the Surgeon and Medic should be switched. Also the Medevac Dropship should have it higher for the Disease Per Turn (City). Possibly -60 or more.

On side site note it should be Medevac not Medivac for the 2 helicopter units. The dropship has it spelled correctly.
 
I am sorry but I know this has been brought up before but I don't recall the answer. Why's the Surgeon better hat healing than the Medic? Even though the Surgeon upgrades into the Medic.

I could swear I fixed this a while ago. Oh well, It should be correct now, please tell me if it still isn't.
 
I have a question, why is Surgeon Before Medic and Ambulance WWI?

And shouldn't there be a Doctor unit after Apothecary where the Surgeon is now?

Were Doctors from the 17th century called Surgeon's?

Just curious is all.

JosEPh
 
I have a question, why is Surgeon Before Medic and Ambulance WWI?

And shouldn't there be a Doctor unit after Apothecary where the Surgeon is now?

Were Doctors from the 17th century called Surgeon's?

Just curious is all.

JosEPh

You may need to ask Orion Veteran since I think we got all the names from him. Although, thinking on it, we may have added the Surgeon as a filler and started with the name Sawbones. Doctor was already being used as the specialist name - and no I have not got that bit working yet.
 
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