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C2C Ideas Project development thread

Ok this is a cool idea. I have some questions when it comes to cultures. Lets say I made the culture wonder for the Japanese. And then my culture spreads to another players nation. Can they now build their own Samurai too? Will hero units now be like world wonders where players have to rush to build them before another player gets it? Also what about the 15 limit? And if i only have like a tiny % can I make it or do I need more of an influence to build the culture units?
 
Ok this is a cool idea. I have some questions when it comes to cultures. Lets say I made the culture wonder for the Japanese. And then my culture spreads to another players nation. Can they now build their own Samurai too? Will hero units now be like world wonders where players have to rush to build them before another player gets it? Also what about the 15 limit? And if i only have like a tiny % can I make it or do I need more of an influence to build the culture units?
Most, if not all, world units requires a culture world wonder to be trained.
For regular culture units you also need to have built the respective culture world wonder.
You don't get that culture as a normal culture group in your city culture bar at all.

I'm not too fond of the culture system in place at the moment, but I have no alternative to present.

Edit: I seemed to have failed to grasp the context of Hydros post when I replied to it.
I just coughed up information he most likely already knew. ^^
 
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Lets say I made the culture wonder for the Japanese. And then my culture spreads to another players nation. Can they now build their own Samurai too?
It would depend on how strong the Japanese culture is in a city. The Samurai could require, say, 25% strength of the culture 'idea' in a city for that city to qualify to train them. Even in your own cities, not all of them may have strong enough Japanese culture to train the Samurai. However, you could use Japanese cultural buildings and/or Storytellers trained in cities that have primarily Japanese culture, or those who have promoted to 'learn' how to spread Japanese culture, to boost the strength of Japanese culture in your cities so that it starts to get ahead where you want it to so that you can start to be able to build Samurai where you want to.

If you spread out your Japanese culture to other nations with said storytellers or by creating immigrants from primarily Japanese cities and sending them to join other cities in other nations, you could start to push your Japanese culture outward, which could give you a strong capability of eventually fracturing your opponent's nation, without war, and having some of your opponent's cities potentially even join you when you later decide to (with civics) adopt the Japanese culture as your national identity.

But in the meantime, yes, it would mean your opponent could also potentially build his own Samurai in those cities that you've been pushing the Japanese culture.

One of the main things we're hung up on at the moment is trying to determine a set of rules that guide the growth of and shrinking of cultural values, what mathematics define their spread, waxing and waning. I'll have to start giving this deeper consideration and expressing some ideas here for that.

In essence, each 'idea' would be like its own property and it would be nice to use the property system but I think that system may be too much for it in processing time and the trade aspect of the property system isn't working properly anyhow. I think it can be done a little simpler in the code.

Will hero units now be like world wonders where players have to rush to build them before another player gets it?
You'd probably want to have to have a fairly strong influence % prerequisite for a culture in a city to train a hero, like 50% or so, which would be easiest for the city that has the initiating wonder for a culture (which would initially be the core source of modifier to increase the influence of that culture in the world, starting primarily with the city it's in) but yeah, there could be a race for them and many cultures may never ben promoted enough in a nation to get the hero out of it anywhere in a game, which is what will limit their impact on games, which is currently said to be too strong because you can get far too many of them.

If you get lots of cultures, you'll still be limited to which ones you want strong enough because any given city can only have one culture at 50%+ at a time and for the sake of your cities struggling the least with national identity conflicts, you'll really want to make sure that all your cities are as much % of the nationally adopted culture as possible unless you're trying to prepare to change your national culture to a better, more modern one you've recently opened up. Or perhaps you're thinking of using a neighbor's national culture against him as you vie to declare YOUR nation the standard bearer of that culture by adopting the same culture they have... an interesting way to prepare to go to war so that you can assimilate the people faster perhaps.

Then again, you may want to take advantage of multiculturalism and promote some places to be more one culture than your primary cultural identity so that you can use the unique heritage history of that city to leverage it to build special buildings (like wonders or unique cultural specials) special units and heroes that those other cultures can get. New Orleans, for a real world example, could be seen to be about 20% French, 30% Creole (or Hatian), and 50% United States cultures (probably more complex than that still with some Mexican influence, some Canadian influence etc... but you get the point.) It's just a little risky to let your nation's cities start drifting towards these other cultures because of the potential for a cultural schism to be used against you or for it to potentially tear your nation in half.

Also what about the 15 limit?
That would be 'by player' as it is currently programmed. This could mean there could be 30 samurai in the world but only because you and your neighbor have been building them and both of you capped out at your alotted 15.

And if i only have like a tiny % can I make it or do I need more of an influence to build the culture units?
The unit's culture prerequisite would have to change from a boolean to an integer to reflect the % that is required for that unit to be trained. We could then set that prerequisite cultural influence for each unit as we see fit.

Most, if not all, world units requires a culture world wonder to be trained.
For regular culture units you also need to have built the respective culture world wonder.
You don't get that culture as a normal culture group in your city culture bar at all.

I'm not too fond of the culture system in place at the moment, but I have no alternative to present.
The Idea system we're discussing here is exactly my antidote for the problems this approach has come along with. It's also potentially the beginning of an entirely new approach to 'revolutions', a C2C version so to speak.
 
The Idea system we're discussing here is exactly my antidote for the problems this approach has come along with. It's also potentially the beginning of an entirely new approach to 'revolutions', a C2C version so to speak.
I didn't realize which thread I was replying in at that moment. ^^
The ideas system is something I'm familiar with and eager to see come to fruition.
 
Most, if not all, world units requires a culture world wonder to be trained.
For regular culture units you also need to have built the respective culture world wonder.
You don't get that culture as a normal culture group in your city culture bar at all.

I'm not too fond of the culture system in place at the moment, but I have no alternative to present.

Edit: I seemed to have failed to grasp the context of Hydros post when I replied to it.
I just coughed up information he most likely already knew. ^^

I invented the "Cultures" system with the embassy wonder and culture resources. So yeah I know about it. I was asking if his new proposed system would be taking the place of the "culture resources".
 
@TB

Yeah that's sounds like a good way to do it. 25% for culture units and 50% for hero units. All this would creature a lot more strategy if you want to be a united culture or very multicultural. This system is like a mixture of that way religion spreads and crime spreads. I like it a lot. And if cultures are made into this new thing then trading culture resources can be retried. And then the whole storytellers and immigrants can become the new missionaries / crime units. If you follow what I mean.
 
@TB

Yeah that's sounds like a good way to do it. 25% for culture units and 50% for hero units. All this would creature a lot more strategy if you want to be a united culture or very multicultural. This system is like a mixture of that way religion spreads and crime spreads. I like it a lot. And if cultures are made into this new thing then trading culture resources can be retried. And then the whole storytellers and immigrants can become the new missionaries / crime units. If you follow what I mean.
Exactly. And so much more.

Again, what I need from the forum is some help figuring out how we guide the mathematical process.

Ideas vary in terms of how they rise to popularity and fade from popularity. Being new is sometimes a huge benefit for an idea and sometimes a huge penalty for it because it's challenging current ideas. How do we define the difference for ideas?
 
Well would "cultures" and "philosophies" be 2 separate things? For instance many different cultures could share the same philosophy. And likewise many philosophies could exist within the same culture.
Both would be potentially ideas in their own categories. A culture could promote a number of various philosophies and philosophies could promote various cultures but both would be 'ideas'. If you want to get that in-deep with it, that could be fascinating but very VERY difficult to structure with any balance.
 
Yep. The trick is to figure out all the 'tags' we need for structuring idea expansion and retraction and spread and on what objects those need to be situated.

But you're seeing the full implications of what the system should be able to accomplish :D The more I think about it the more it blossoms and after a while it gets out of my ability to keep juggling my thoughts. I suppose if I slow down and think of it one piece at a time it shouldn't be so tough to design.
 
I know this sounds like something different, but the mathematical model should be similar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemic_model
hmm... food for thought for both this and the disease system. Unfortunately a lot of it seems to be asking for variables we wouldn't dare model (speaking of the diseases).

I have determined a few variables for this system:

1) The distance to the next city.
Different from trade. There would be a localized spread that would be sorta like plot to plot except I do NOT want to track it BY plot due to the expense. So instead, cities will track the plot distance to each other, and perhaps even adjust that perception of distance by existing routes. Ideas would bleed into its neighbors. The stronger the idea in a locale, the more it attempts to inflence its neighbors and the closer the neighbor the more bleedover it gets.

2) Trade
Very similar but very direct through a trade route.

3) Newness
I'm not sure if this should just be assumed to be a strong reason for the idea to spread harder but it is a factor. Whether its a positive or even potentially negative one maybe should be defined by the specific idea itself, much like the % spread chance can be different by religion. Some ideas may be more perceptible as good after people have been exposed to them for a long time and others may seem best at first. Newness effect would decay over time and perhaps that decay itself should also be its own variable.

4) Age
The opposite factor of Newness. Some ideas get more popular with time like a fine wine. Age effect would enhance over time and the rate of enhancement perhaps could be its own variable.

5) Fixed propaganda points. A fixed propaganda point would be what the world wonder for a culture that causes the culture to emerge would produce. It would be what some units could add to a city by just being there, perhaps also by increasing with buildups. We could have new buildings specifically representing investments into particular for or against particular idea propagandas.

6) Random popularity sway factors. Every round there should be some random factor that sways the idea positively or negatively.

7) Population size: Larger cities would tend to try to breed their own ideas to establish a local identity. They may also be a breeding ground for more acceptance of a wider set of cultural concepts whereas smaller cities would tend to be able to apply more social pressure to align to a smaller set of values and concepts. Thus a smaller city would tend to exert a pressure that eliminates ideas with less traction and larger ones would tend to invite and expand those ideas with less traction and diminish ideas with greater dominance, except for pushing promotion of those concepts they identify as 'their own'.

How we define larger and smaller is something to further consider here.

I'll keep a running list as I consider more.
 
if I understand this correctly the Idea of this (Pun intended :p) is that you can build culture wonders (like before) but they take up a percentage based on when it was adopted. You can get culture percentage through trade ,age and propaganda and you need a percentage to build the unique units and there are at least 2 new civics Monoculturalism and multiculturalism, Mono increases stability but gives unhappiness and reduces great people rate based on how many cultures exist and Multi decreases stability but gives happiness and GPP based on how many cultures exist? how will this work with a tree, like what if after a few
hundred turns two cultures co mingled to become a new culture? how would those cultures affect the culture scale?
 
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if I understand this correctly the Idea of this (Pun intended :p) is that you can build culture wonders (like before) but they take up a percentage based on when it was adopted.
More that they become a source of growing influence, adding more to the city, and bleeding over into other cities via trade networks and unit activities. The influence volume of an idea in a city is compared to the influence volumes of competing ideas, Cultures being one example of ideas in competition with one another. In this comparison of ratios of the influence volumes, each city is, round by round, tracking the strength of the idea as a % vs the other ideas it's in competition with.

Yes, you can get Idea influence strength through trade, propaganda and more, and individual ideas may have unique 'flow types'. Some ideas may come on very strong and based on how long the idea has been in play it naturally wants to grow stronger at the beginning, while reaching a point where it wants to level off then fade if not continuously promoted. Others may not surge so fast but rather grow stronger, gradually over time. Others may not really want to take off until it's been around a while. Some may naturally be better and more effective, honest or truthful ideas, whereas others are more rumormill, conspiracy based, or somehow just not that reliable and thus not so adoptable. So there are quality factors that differ for each idea, established in the definitions for those ideas. Perhaps most 'culture' ideas would probably behave much the same way but some historical flow of the rise and fall of various empires might be something we could attempt to get the game to try to mimic.

I like the idea of having some civics like those mentioned that would enhance the adopted culture or invite the growth of other cultures into your cities. Might be more than just a few civics that could generate some idea manipulators. And you also suggest, incidentally, that some new civic tags in use on those civics could create game detail modifiers that are based on the strengths and diversity of ideas present.

Many buildings and units would require an idea to have at least x% strength in the city to be able to build, train, or continue to maintain function.

It would work like a tree because you would have more advanced, modern cultures (as an example) having prerequisites of existing cultures in a strong enough influence % to be able to build/introduce them.

In fact, I would love it if once this is setup, you don't actually build cultures but rather they emerge where the conditions are just right and you can let them spread organically and fight for their own right to exist or you can try to influence what cultures you want where, probably so as to prepare for invasion or keep your nation more stable as you unify your people or prepare to take the ultimate switch to abandon your previous national identity and pick up a new one entirely. This may often result in a fracturing of the nation if not done with care but should lead to the adoption of more pervasive and powerful cultures with new benefits.

And again, cultures would be just one of many types of ideas.

The classic vanilla culture stuff would be your civ-wide national governmental claim influence while these cultures would be the way people identify themselves and can easily cross borders into other nations and their cities, making for very powerful cultural warfare scenarios like we see today that has someone in particular wanting to build a wall.
 
Whats the difference between the ideas and civics?
An idea is more like a property than a civic. It is a concept that is being adopted or denied by the individuals of the nation, not necessarily yet the leaders. A civic is a set of policies by which the government is run. An idea can be a language, a culture, a religion, a corporation, a story, a dance, a desire for a policy or building (or revolt) that exists among the people. There are a tremendous number of ways we can use the ideas mechanism.

"It's much easier to combat an army than it is to combat an idea" - a quote I recently heard from the movie Ben Hur.

Ideas in this implementation will restructure a lot of underlying game mechanics into something we've been struggling to achieve with other models for quite a while. It's almost like the way Religious influences work but something much more interactive.
 
But for example there are language civics if a Language Idea is added will the language civics be removed? also will Religion be an Idea or another thing entirely, how will the beliefs factor into it
 
The language Civic accounts for how the state interacts with language matters on an officiary level.

Individual languages (which aren't yet on the radar at all but the ideas project is being built with that possible project in mind) would track the expansion of a given lingual set, such as Italian, English, Swahili etc... and how many people in a given city speak it, represented by a percentage of the overall population of that city. This could have a big interaction with cultures in that individual cultures may declare a language. Then where that language is spoken, the culture may have a much easier time spreading, and a much harder time spreading where the language isn't spoken.

All this would not supercede how the language civic is run, but perhaps the selections of the language civic would make languages with less influence more or less welcome, might exert a force to invite nearby languages to expand by teaching them in schools, or retract in the community by demanding only the primary language be spoken in public. We might have more language civics to account for these differing policies regarding language.

Religions would also be tracked by influence and adoption within a population as an idea rather than the original methods. You could only build a temple, say, if you have 20% religious influence towards its religion, and perhaps we will have building tags that makes a temple more valuable when a higher % of religious influence towards its religion exists in the city. These are examples.

Great questions. Hopefully I'm helping to clarify the differences and what an 'Idea' will amount to in the game.
 
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