C2C Leaderheads

RidetheSpiral23

C2C Map Team
Joined
Feb 28, 2012
Messages
389
I am going to be doing quite a bit of work on Leaderheads in the near future and I thought I would reach out and get some ideas from everyone since we all play. I will update this post as it goes a long but for right now everyone please feel free to post your thoughts...

I'm looking for leaderhead names and your take on their traits for any civ\culture in the game. Multiple per actually. So if anyone has a particular culture you find fascinating and have some ideas please speak up.
 
Well, traits are another matter but yes, SgtSlick should get in on this discussion after reviewing the Archetypes thread.

@RtS: I'd suggest attempting to drive conversation with some more pointed questions. The open ended nature of the beginning post invites a big 'hmmm....' response I think because it asks a question that's a bit too wide to get any solid thought going on the subject.

What exactly are you asking, in otherwords? Are you asking for further ideas to help develop more leaders or for edit ideas on existing leaders?

I'd like to know what kind of leader counts we have by civ.

And I know it'd be very easy to flesh out all US leaders as there's lots of info devoted to enumerating every president that's ever been... I'd also include Benjamin Franklin as he well could've been voted in as a president - and if we need more, we always have online resources to pull up info on all the candidates that LOST elections but were up for potential presidency.

I'm thinking we should research world leaders by era to make sure basically all currently included civs have all noted leaders of those civs included in our lists of leaders. Could take a while to compile such a list with notes about their leadership styles to the best of any historical information on those.

Interestingly, Sumeria has a rather large list of noted leaders... though apparently the earliest were said to be outright gods with thousands of years of rulership each. (That reminds me that Divine Blood was a Trait I wanted to include...)
 
Some of these pictures are really ridiculous...
 
We already have well over 100 LHs in the game now, I'm not exactly certain why we need more. That said, I would be in favor of implementing Personality Archetypes on existing leaders with no unique personalities, but adding new LHs will just use up more memory for very little gain in diversity, given how many leaders we already have.
 
We already have well over 100 LHs in the game now, I'm not exactly certain why we need more. That said, I would be in favor of implementing Personality Archetypes on existing leaders with no unique personalities, but adding new LHs will just use up more memory for very little gain in diversity, given how many leaders we already have.

I dont think it will use up that much more, as long as they are "static."
 
I dont think it will use up that much more, as long as they are "static."

Each one uses a couple MB of RAM (5 or so), so when you are talking such numbers as they are that gets real big real quick. And given the other stuff we want to add I just can't see this as a good expenditure of RAM.

I would not have a problem though if these went into the Extra Leaderhead pack (or if we revived that pack as a main download). But please not in the core.
 
Each one uses a couple MB of RAM (5 or so), so when you are talking such numbers as they are that gets real big real quick. And given the other stuff we want to add I just can't see this as a good expenditure of RAM.

I would not have a problem though if these went into the Extra Leaderhead pack (or if we revived that pack as a main download). But please not in the core.

That sounds reasonable, as a modmod.
 
You and SgtSlick, need to get together.
Will do!
Well, traits are another matter but yes, SgtSlick should get in on this discussion after reviewing the Archetypes thread.

@RtS: I'd suggest attempting to drive conversation with some more pointed questions. The open ended nature of the beginning post invites a big 'hmmm....' response I think because it asks a question that's a bit too wide to get any solid thought going on the subject.

What exactly are you asking, in otherwords? Are you asking for further ideas to help develop more leaders or for edit ideas on existing leaders?

I'd like to know what kind of leader counts we have by civ.

And I know it'd be very easy to flesh out all US leaders as there's lots of info devoted to enumerating every president that's ever been... I'd also include Benjamin Franklin as he well could've been voted in as a president - and if we need more, we always have online resources to pull up info on all the candidates that LOST elections but were up for potential presidency.

I'm thinking we should research world leaders by era to make sure basically all currently included civs have all noted leaders of those civs included in our lists of leaders. Could take a while to compile such a list with notes about their leadership styles to the best of any historical information on those.

Interestingly, Sumeria has a rather large list of noted leaders... though apparently the earliest were said to be outright gods with thousands of years of rulership each. (That reminds me that Divine Blood was a Trait I wanted to include...)

Fair enough. When I get time leader I will edit the OP to be more specific and list out what we have currently.

Some of these pictures are really ridiculous...
Okay, do you have any suggestions on alternate choices???

We already have well over 100 LHs in the game now, I'm not exactly certain why we need more. That said, I would be in favor of implementing Personality Archetypes on existing leaders with no unique personalities, but adding new LHs will just use up more memory for very little gain in diversity, given how many leaders we already have.
Im not certain it would affect memory a whole lot but I could be wrong. The point is to have dynamic leaders so you dont have just one leader the entire game (this will be a while but that's the long term goal). They can die of old age, get killed in combat, or get assassinated etc. The other benefit is more diversity in AI leaders.
 
Each one uses a couple MB of RAM (5 or so), so when you are talking such numbers as they are that gets real big real quick. And given the other stuff we want to add I just can't see this as a good expenditure of RAM.

I would not have a problem though if these went into the Extra Leaderhead pack (or if we revived that pack as a main download). But please not in the core.

Not that I don't believe you but I'm confused how this is true. Are you talking at mod load up or in game. If in game then it wouldn't be loading any of Leaderheads you aren't using correct?
 
Not that I don't believe you but I'm confused how this is true. Are you talking at mod load up or in game. If in game then it wouldn't be loading any of Leaderheads you aren't using correct?

All art, whether or not it is used, adds some memory overhead. For most things it is quite small (measured in KBs), but even a Static Leaderhead can be 2 MBs or more.

And with regards to the new Leaderhead plan, I hope that it will be an option (with option edits if necessary).
 
All art, whether or not it is used, adds some memory overhead. For most things it is quite small (measured in KBs), but even a Static Leaderhead can be 2 MBs or more.

And with regards to the new Leaderhead plan, I hope that it will be an option (with option edits if necessary).

Okay man I would really like to get along with you but it seems like everything I try working on you just think is insane. How can you be opposed to adding stuff when that's all everyone does here?

Yes I'm sure it will be a game option like most of the features of C2C. That's basically a given at this point.

How about you help me out here and give me some suggestions on how to make it work with huge memory overhead. Attempting to find smaller sized leaderhead pictures? Using the same art file for multiple leaders (like a flag or collection of leaders in one art)? Anything else you can give me?
 
Okay man I would really like to get along with you but it seems like everything I try working on you just think is insane. How can you be opposed to adding stuff when that's all everyone does here?

Yes I'm sure it will be a game option like most of the features of C2C. That's basically a given at this point.

How about you help me out here and give me some suggestions on how to make it work with huge memory overhead. Attempting to find smaller sized leaderhead pictures? Using the same art file for multiple leaders (like a flag or collection of leaders in one art)? Anything else you can give me?

I don't think it is insane. I am however reticent to mess with Leaderheads more, given how much they've already been changed recently. I am not opposed to change, but the direction I want that change to go is often different than the direction Hydro and Thunderbrd want it to go. That is just part of our team dynamics, we all have our own opinions on what is good for the mod.
 
I don't think it is insane. I am however reticent to mess with Leaderheads more, given how much they've already been changed recently. I am not opposed to change, but the direction I want that change to go is often different than the direction Hydro and Thunderbrd want it to go. That is just part of our team dynamics, we all have our own opinions on what is good for the mod.

Fair enough man I can understand that. Everyone is not going to agree all the time. I would really appreciate it if when you give feedback you help me work it out instead of just saying no that's a bad idea. As I'm relatively new at this whole thing I would greatly appreciate it. Would you be willing to give me some feedback on those ideas in my last post?
 
Fair enough man I can understand that. Everyone is not going to agree all the time. I would really appreciate it if when you give feedback you help me work it out instead of just saying no that's a bad idea. As I'm relatively new at this whole thing I would greatly appreciate it. Would you be willing to give me some feedback on those ideas in my last post?

Yes. The primary issue I have with it is that the concept of getting new leaders every now and then is not really civ-like. For instance, at the start of the game on some speeds you would need multiple leaders per turn, using normal lifespans. The whole point is that your leaderhead is supposed to be a famous figure from your civ, not the leader of it. You are the leader of your civ. That is my main objection to this idea. If we want to have more diversity in AI leaders the route I'd pursue is to allow an AI's personality to evolve over the couse of the game. That and adding trait levels (I'll probably be doing that for my trait set next version) will help in that goal and also be fun.
 
Yes. The primary issue I have with it is that the concept of getting new leaders every now and then is not really civ-like. For instance, at the start of the game on some speeds you would need multiple leaders per turn, using normal lifespans. The whole point is that your leaderhead is supposed to be a famous figure from your civ, not the leader of it. You are the leader of your civ. That is my main objection to this idea. If we want to have more diversity in AI leaders the route I'd pursue is to allow an AI's personality to evolve over the couse of the game. That and adding trait levels (I'll probably be doing that for my trait set next version) will help in that goal and also be fun.

Okay that's a fair point. I guess it depends on people's thought process. I see civ as playing through your leader, personally I like history so I tend to play somewhat the way I picture the leaderhead I picked playing. If you suggest the leader personality evolving (which is kinda cool) I don't see that much difference to have the leader name change.

To your other point Civ is not a game for realistic scaling. It just doesn't work. I'm not saying the Leaderheads in game life span would equate to RL life span. That would be terrible.
 
Yes. The primary issue I have with it is that the concept of getting new leaders every now and then is not really civ-like. For instance, at the start of the game on some speeds you would need multiple leaders per turn, using normal lifespans. The whole point is that your leaderhead is supposed to be a famous figure from your civ, not the leader of it. You are the leader of your civ. That is my main objection to this idea. If we want to have more diversity in AI leaders the route I'd pursue is to allow an AI's personality to evolve over the couse of the game. That and adding trait levels (I'll probably be doing that for my trait set next version) will help in that goal and also be fun.

In our planning discussions we've realized that not all players would prefer changing leaders even infrequently. Thus, yes, it'd certainly be optional.

You mentioned about normal lifespans and you're right about older eras and how that would work in any sort of 'realistic' worldview but like many other elements in civ, it would be a more subjective suggestion of reality we'd seek rather than an absolute reflection.

We figured it'd still be a bit 'more' real feeling to enable Dynamic Leaders even if those leaders still had a period of rule that far exceeds a normal established human lifespan. The lifespan of rule for a leader would likely be based on civic selections actually.

Like unit movement, its all subjective and the timing of changes like these would need to be admittedly unrealistic to make it work (we wouldn't want to have leaders changing every round or anywhere near that, no) but occasional changes in leaders enables a more true to historic progress feel and would, for many of us, be a very enjoyable feature. Particularly for those of us who really like the slowest game speeds and taking on the game as a true epic.

I also personally feel that the Developing Leaderheads and the trait levels you mentioned would play very well into this. It was actually the first step in the brackets of the project that RtS and I are hoping to move forward on.

As for memory, sure the Leader pic library will take up load space but very little in play ram use. And as this proceeds, at a point, it will be necessary to enable even more diversity for leaders thus a random leader system will be implemented. The larger the library of leader pics we have for this the better. Thus most leaders we could see in the game wouldn't even be pre-defined leaders and thus would not be taking up more load space. Just helps to have quite a few to draw upon for the building blocks is what it amounts to.

This also plays into the options we've discussed about having our leaders (and potential leaders that may be selected to lead in the future) represented on the board by actual units that have the potential for in-game mortality as well...
 
On a somewhat related note how much work would it be to have the flag for your civ change during game? Or is that not even possible to accomplish?
 
On a somewhat related note how much work would it be to have the flag for your civ change during game? Or is that not even possible to accomplish?

Likely possible and not a lot of effort.

Thx a good question, and i i need to find out how to do, with the new Barbs i am making, anyone have any ideas on this, or a sample how to, thx.
 
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