C2C Observations

[HorseshoeHermit]

I had no idea C2C development panel had so much strife. A finished product must end its fiddling sometime... but the mod's draw is its downright glut of content and lovingly caressed components...

A quandary.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The prehistoric era will continue to be "fiddled" with until we have everything in. For example we still do not have the diplomacy or nomadic stuff in.

As far as diplomacy is concerned you can't even do the basic "bribe barbarians to go hassle someone else" let alone the "settle the invading barbarian army in a part of your nation to stop their friends eg Rollo".

 

[Galadrion]

Ok that's odd. What do you mean by "considerably difficulties"? Is it just annoyingly high or are you really hindered by it?

It's mostly just annoying, but occasionally can become a genuine handicap, particularly during the middle to late Renaissance era. About that time, pollution of both types is getting extremely high (I tend to be strongly industry-oriented in my play style, and that's about the point I've got large numbers of production building in most or all of my cities), usually leaving most of my cities just on the edge getting into health problems. I can handle that - usually - but it leaves me at risk from rival civilizations' spy missions, which if they hit at times like this can become truly devastating.

Understand, I'm not saying the mechanisms are wrong. In point of fact, I think they are right, mostly. I would like to see some earlier pollution-combatting measures, but honestly, I recognize that if you have earlier opportunities to bring pollution under control, then the consequences of not doing so should be worse.

 

[Arakhor]

I do believe that Pollution could be re-calibrated some but why remove it? Isn't it primarily our replacement for global warming basically? I've been impressed with the depth of effect work that has been done to support the pollution system... nearby tiles becoming less productive, localized terrain changes, etc... Seems a cool system that just needs more balance work is all.

It would still be better to have one generalised pollution property, rather than air and water pollution. After all, it's the diffusing properties with each new city that are part of the abrupt EOT slow-down.

 

[Thunderbrd]

It would still be better to have one generalised pollution property, rather than air and water pollution. After all, it's the diffusing properties with each new city that are part of the abrupt EOT slow-down.

Not all that significant I assure you.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I'm not sure so I'm legitimately asking: What's wrong with tourism?

I do believe that Pollution could be re-calibrated some but why remove it? Isn't it primarily our replacement for global warming basically? I've been impressed with the depth of effect work that has been done to support the pollution system... nearby tiles becoming less productive, localized terrain changes, etc... Seems a cool system that just needs more balance work is all.

Las time I looked it had many levels at +10 Crime/turn. As it also has Pollution with +10/turn. No real scale just 10 levels of +5 or +10. Unless you changed it when you added your Criminal and Law units.

Disease and Pollution used to be dependent upon the generated in your cities. With the new property system you can't tell if your cities are diseased or polluting by the faces any more. It's now abstract and you've lost that visual sense of where your at with or . Players complain they have too much in their cities because of this abstraction.

All I know is that we've seemed to have lost something in the translation. The old way just worked better for me. And really pollution was a factor for Disease ( , ) before and not a separate entity. That's why I think it's unnecessary. Same goes for Tourism.

The Mod worked very well with out either in it before and it was less micromanagement "fiddling". Also less xml and other coding to deal with too when trying to keep the mod stable. Over saturation imhpo.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

Las time I looked it had many levels at +10 Crime/turn. As it also has Pollution with +10/turn. No real scale just 10 levels of +5 or +10. Unless you changed it when you added your Criminal and Law units.

Disease and Pollution used to be dependent upon the generated in your cities. With the new property system you can't tell if your cities are diseased or polluting by the faces any more. It's now abstract and you've lost that visual sense of where your at with or . Players complain they have too much in their cities because of this abstraction.

All I know is that we've seemed to have lost something in the translation. The old way just worked better for me. And really pollution was a factor for Disease ( , ) before and not a separate entity. That's why I think it's unnecessary. Same goes for Tourism.

The Mod worked very well with out either in it before and it was less micromanagement "fiddling". Also less xml and other coding to deal with too when trying to keep the mod stable. Over saturation imhpo.

JosEPh

Interesting.

Just to be very clear, simply means mortality rate in C2C. Disease was never subservient to or came from it but rather the other way around. Disease is a source of . And in general our disease structure is probably too forgiving.

But Disease is not the only source of . Pollution is also a source. But mortality rate is not the only effect from pollution.

Tourism doesn't directly impact mortality rate yuck. But it does influence it. High travel regions and destination hubs classically struggle with diseases being brought in from all around the world, therefore, higher tourism will bring with it increased danger of disease. As disease grows, the diseases can become severe enough to create a mortality rate yuck.

Tourism does have the benefit of adding commerce... a lot of commerce. So the taxation benefits to the country for having a region of intense tourism are strong.

Although crime grows higher in tourist destinations due to locals taking greater advantage of gawking out of towners and visitors feeling like they can get away with more because they aren't living their normal day-to-day lives, as crime grows, tourism is diminished by it (or should be) because the city slowly becomes known as a place where you're likely to be preyed upon.

I didn't manipulate things there and perhaps some finer calibration is in order but the whole point is to enhance micromanagement so if that's your complaint then I'd say we've done a good job with it.

 

[Faustmouse]

More crime caused by a lot of tourism is only true to a certain point. An area with high tourism is so valuable that the government would never allow gun shootings or organzied crime sub-cities to exist in these regions.

 

[Arakhor]

Not all that significant I assure you.

Well, if it's not the diffusing properties, it's got to be something major instead.

 

[tmv]

I think the main problem with tourism is the lack of control. It feels strange that you cannot do anything about it. If you play at an easy level (and unlimited wonders) tourism is going to be your nightmare, when you reach Classical Lifestyle and pollution goes through the roof while you are still ages away from counter-measures. Of course, counter-measures for problems at easy difficulties might not have a high priority, but this is also an immersion problem.

The question is: Why isn't it possible to banish the tourists? Lose all the culture and income, but easing up on crime, disease and pollution. That could be the best choice under certain circumstances and it is certainly what a real ruler might do in your place if these problems go out of hand (while going medieval on the worst of the lot). Perhaps "Banish the tourists" could be another border civic, pushing "Closed Borders" up to eleven.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I had no idea C2C development panel had so much strife.

Nah not strife, just grouchy old men trying to counterbalance each other for the most part. Can't let everything be a runaway train you know. And I've always been the "No NO!" man around here starting about 8 years ago.

A finished product must end its fiddling sometime... but the mod's draw is its downright glut of content and lovingly caressed components...

A quandary.

C2C may never be a "finished" product. It will probably fizzle out under it's own weight. We only need about 4 more C++ coders to even think about getting to a semi-"finished" state. Whatever that might be.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

More crime caused by a lot of tourism is only true to a certain point. An area with high tourism is so valuable that the government would never allow gun shootings or organzied crime sub-cities to exist in these regions.

Just goes to show that the government would invest more crime fighting efforts there usually, which is what the game does allow you to do.

Well, if it's not the diffusing properties, it's got to be something major instead.

AI. The delays are almost entirely in the AI.

I think the main problem with tourism is the lack of control. It feels strange that you cannot do anything about it. If you play at an easy level (and unlimited wonders) tourism is going to be your nightmare, when you reach Classical Lifestyle and pollution goes through the roof while you are still ages away from counter-measures. Of course, counter-measures for problems at easy difficulties might not have a high priority, but this is also an immersion problem.

The question is: Why isn't it possible to banish the tourists? Lose all the culture and income, but easing up on crime, disease and pollution. That could be the best choice under certain circumstances and it is certainly what a real ruler might do in your place if these problems go out of hand (while going medieval on the worst of the lot). Perhaps "Banish the tourists" could be another border civic, pushing "Closed Borders" up to eleven.

I like some of the thinking in this. Of course there would also be some hostility in keeping tourists out. Perhaps a civic could somehow turn off tourism but cause a fair degree of diplomacy penalty.