C2C - Tips and Tricks

[JosEPh_II]

I just tried it with the NEW SVN and still its a no go They got Sed Life and i just started Slavery

I did exactly what you have and even moved to the fastest research + and - slider, to NO avail

Works for me on Noble level, Epic or Marathon speed.

Newest game teched this path adding in several techs that are normally outside the path I posted. I reached Tribalism 1st and then Sed. Life. 1st too. Sed Life was the 52nd tech I researched Plus I had 2 extra techs from Goody Huts. With the Free Tech from Sed Life I always choose Equine Domest. And then Research Horse Back Riding to found Tengriism.

I didn't reach Shamanism 1st for a change, but Founded Ngaiism 5 techs later at Ceremonial Burial # 46. By tech #56 in my Path I researched Sacrificail Cult and founded Naghualism. At my 80th tech I founded Judaism from Mono and then with tech # 81 researched Mathematics to found Shinto. Tech 85 was Iron working followed by #86 Bhuddism for monasteries and also Founded Bhuddism. I purposefully avoided Dualism and Polytheism until tech researched reached #'s 100 and 101. This allowed the AI to found 2 more religions besides Druid and Shamanism. I've also held off on founding Hellenism although I can at anytime get it.

So my Gatherer-> Cave dwelling->Oral tradition (even adding in Weaving)->Tracking->Cult ID->Tribalism (even adding in Herbalism allowed me to get to Tribes 1st)then ->Hunting-> Petroglyphs->Barter->Chiefdom->Sed. Lifestyle 1st (and a free tech Equine Domestication)!

So SO it works for me almost every time. In fact I can only remember 1 time I lost out.

JosEPh

 

[strategyonly]

Sed Life was the 52nd tech I researched Plus I had 2 extra techs from Goody Huts. (No wonder)
JosEPh

see with your posted above, LOL

 

[JosEPh_II]

I could list my exact research path as I have been writing it all down.

Even with the 2 goodie Hut techs (Prehistoric Music and Basketry) I still added in at least 3 other techs outside this pathing.

So I really don't know why it doesn't work for you too.

With this pathing I could just about Found all but Druidism of the earliest religions up to Confucianism/Hellenism/Taoism. And my 3 favorite ones; Tengrii, Judaism, and Buddhism all fall right into place. Horses (early mounted and fast units), Rabbi (late game religious favorite), and Monasteries (research kick for all my cities by having multiple religions in All my cities + added culture and + health too) help me along.

JosEPh

 

[DRJ]

I could list my exact research path as I have been writing it all down.

Even with the 2 goodie Hut techs (Prehistoric Music and Basketry) I still added in at least 3 other techs outside this pathing.

So I really don't know why it doesn't work for you too.

Perhaps because he doesn't play noble? Micromanaging workers/hunters? Or maybe it's different maps with different starting res? Different neighbours (warmongers)? There can be a lot of factors.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Perhaps the question was rhetorical.

JosEPh

 

[strategyonly]

Perhaps because he doesn't play noble? Micromanaging workers/hunters? Or maybe it's different maps with different starting res? Different neighbors (warmongers)? There can be a lot of factors.

I could list my exact research path as I have been writing it all down.

Even with the 2 goodie Hut techs (Prehistoric Music and Basketry) I still added in at least 3 other techs outside this pathing.
So I really don't know why it doesn't work for you too.
With this pathing I could just about Found all but Druidism of the earliest religions up to Confucianism/Hellenism/Taoism. And my 3 favorite ones; Tengrii, Judaism, and Buddhism all fall right into place. Horses (early mounted and fast units), Rabbi (late game religious favorite), and Monasteries (research kick for all my cities by having multiple religions in All my cities + added culture and + health too) help me along.
JosEPh

Nope i always play on Noble, but i always play with Flexible Difficulty also. I play ALOT different from anyone that really knows the game real well, i play as if i have never played a game before, and i have NO idea what to do next, thats why some of my questions i make, i already know the answer, its just a question if i am asking then the person that is new is going to ask the same question, but alot of people are just afraid to ask, as not being jumped on by someone, or the same, thats all, because i dont mind it, infact i like it.
I get some good responses, but some saying, what the heck?? You ought to know but to me see that makes the point.

 

[DRJ]

Nope i always play on Noble, but i always play with Flexible Difficulty also. I play ALOT different from anyone that really knows the game real well, i play as if i have never played a game before, and i have NO idea what to do next, thats why some of my questions i make, i already know the answer, its just a question if i am asking then the person that is new is going to ask the same question, but alot of people are just afraid to ask, as not being jumped on by someone, or the same, thats all, because i dont mind it, infact i like it.
I get some good responses, but some saying, what the heck?? You ought to know but to me see that makes the point.

Sounds like the organic, in parts unconscious, fascinated, impartial - innocent - style to play this game. Shamanistic, in a way. Like dreaming as a child in wonderland civ.
Yeah, I dig it!
- and getting that hemp plantation working is always the high-light of a game, at least for me

 

[JosEPh_II]

I really need the Tech tree chart. The one in Hydro's sig line is hard for me to figure out. The reason, I've already founded 9 religions and I only tried for 4 of them. It's 740 AD in my new game, I've just finished researching my 107th tech, Code of Laws (that gave me the 9th religion I've founded).

I also wonder how much Tech "pathing" the AI actually does? Or are the AI like Newbies and only have a list of close techs (like the popup for the player) to choose from? Or can it "see" down the tech tree and have a Goal to tech to? Maybe more players should only use the popup and not look at the Bigger picture (the Research tree)? Like SO is doing right now. It does make for a different game.

JosEPh

 

[Koshling]

I really need the Tech tree chart. The one in Hydro's sig line is hard for me to figure out. The reason, I've already founded 9 religions and I only tried for 4 of them. It's 740 AD in my new game, I've just finished researching my 107th tech, Code of Laws (that gave me the 9th religion I've founded).

I also wonder how much Tech "pathing" the AI actually does? Or are the AI like Newbies and only have a list of close techs (like the popup for the player) to choose from? Or can it "see" down the tech tree and have a Goal to tech to? Maybe more players should only use the popup and not look at the Bigger picture (the Research tree)? Like SO is doing right now. It does make for a different game.

JosEPh

The AI examines all possible paths to all techs within 3 steps in the tree, generating accurate costs (well accurate as determined by its tech value function) for them, considering what it gets for the entire path and the number of turns that entire path requires. It then does a more cursorary check on all techs within 21 steps in the tree looking for possible bee-line techs. The cursorary examination just looks for techs whose individual benefits divided by the cost of that tech alone exceeds the best path-value divided by path time it found in the detailed 3-step examination. Any techs that pass this 'might be worth a look test' then have the full path(s) to them evaluated to generate an accurate cost-benefit for the entire path. If that (on a per-turn required basis) exceeds the best we found so far (in the 3-step paths or previously examined beeline path candidates) it becomes the new best-to-beat. After all such techs are evaluated the one with the highest score is chosen.

Note that the base value of each tech has a small random element also, so that the AI doesn't choose the exact same paths each time.

All the tech choice decisions can be seen in the BBAI log if you turn the logging on.

 

[lunfa_reo]

I read the AI looks 2 or 3 levels deep in the tech tree, at least in vanilla Civ4. Not sure if it's the same in C2C.

EDIT: doh! My post was made irrelevant by Koshling's one right at the moment of posting

 

[Koshling]

I read the AI looks 2 or 3 levels deep in the tech tree, at least in vanilla Civ4. Not sure if it's the same in C2C.

EDIT: doh! My post was made irrelevant by Koshling's one right at the moment of posting

Yeh, the C2C one looks way deeper for beeline possibilities than the basic BtS one.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Thanks for the info Koshling.

Now I need to build the tech tree because as it is there are several spots where the 1st person (player or AI) to a tech can then found 2 religions in a row with the next 2 techs. This should never happen imho but it's been that way for sometime now.

JosEPh

 

[lunfa_reo]

Thanks for the info Koshling.

Now I need to build the tech tree because as it is there are several spots where the 1st person (player or AI) to a tech can then found 2 religions in a row with the next 2 techs. This should never happen imho but it's been that way for sometime now.

JosEPh

I've experienced something similar with the techs Drama (or was it Music?) and Poetry: researched them one right after the other and got 2 free Great Artists in a few turns.
I was glad, but I wonder if this could be an exploit...

 

[Koshling]

I've experienced something similar with the techs Drama (or was it Music?) and Poetry: researched them one right after the other and got 2 free Great Artists in a few turns.
I was glad, but I wonder if this could be an exploit...

It's a design issue. A tech that give a great person should never be followed by a tech that said great person can immediately research for another great person I think.

Note - I need to check, but I'm not sure the AI is aware of the free great person with some techs, so its' valuation may need tweaking to account for it.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Confirmed:

Music gives a GA which you can then use the GA to get Poetry immediately. Which then in turn gives another GA, which I then used to get Aristocracy. Tech->GA->Tech->GA->Tech, nice little run for techs that I generally wait to the last minute to get.

Or you can research Music get the GA and save him. Then if you research Poetry 1st you get a 2nd GA.

I just used mine to get more techs. But if I had had a border city that was culturally pressed by a neighbor I would've used them there.

JosEPh

 

[Koshling]

Confirmed:

Music gives a GA which you can then use the GA to get Poetry immediately. Which then in turn gives another GA, which I then used to get Aristocracy. Tech->GA->Tech->GA->Tech, nice little run for techs that I generally wait to the last minute to get.

Or you can research Music get the GA and save him. Then if you research Poetry 1st you get a 2nd GA.

I just used mine to get more techs. But if I had had a border city that was culturally pressed by a neighbor I would've used them there.

JosEPh

Yeh, I think the tech tree could use small edit around there. Simplest thing would probably be to remove the free GA on poetry and move it to something downstream of there.

 

[JosEPh_II]

As far as I'm concerned gamewise, I see little value in getting Poetry except to get the GA (sorry Hydro but that's how I see it). It's kind of one of those "filler" techs to make you take a few more research turns to get to what you really want.

JosEPh

 

[Hydromancerx]

As far as I'm concerned gamewise, I see little value in getting Poetry except to get the GA (sorry Hydro but that's how I see it). It's kind of one of those "filler" techs to make you take a few more research turns to get to what you really want.

JosEPh

Well it leads to Printing Press and Romanticism. However I think we could add a few buildings or wonders to it. Also I have to add some of the old ideas like the Bardic Circle, etc. However I was unsure which tech to add it to.

How about
- "Bardic Circle" requires a number of Story Teller Huts same req and obsolete techs.
- "Master of Dance" requires a number of "Dance Halls".
- National Wonder "National Dance Form" req a number of "Master of Dance"

I also want to take some of my other old ideas ...

Ok so I am going to try to make a rough outline of a music / art / dance mod.

Language (Req None)

Tribal Music (Req Language, Ritualism)
- Performer's Hut
- Drum Maker's Hut
- Flute Maker's Hut

Petroglyphs (Req Stone Tools, Ritualism)
- Cave Paintings
- Lascaux Cave [World Wonder]

Natya (Req Polytheism, Tribal Music)
- Hindu Dance Theater [Req Hinduism]

Written Music [aka Music] (Req Mathematics and Literature or Drama)
- Music School [Req Theater]
- Harp Marker's Workshop

Drama (Req Literature, Combat Sports, Tribal Music)
- Drama School [Req Theater]

Kabuki (Req Drama, Written Music)
- Kabuki Theater [Req Buddhism]

Court Dancing (Req Written Music, Chivalry)
- Royal Court [Req Castle]

Ballet (Req Drama, Court Dancing)
- Ballet School [Req Theater]

----
Oy there is a lot of dance, arts and music. I am going to stop for the moment. But here are sources to get ideas ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_dance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_classical_music_traditions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_art

All 3 of these are so closely related that they should be all in one mod. Note I am not sure how detailed we want to take this all. But one thing is for sure is Civ4 has hardly anything involving music and the rest of the fine arts. Music tech is really more when written muci was invented and music has been around for much much longer.

Except rather than a tech just have like a Ballet Company building or Kabuki Theater.

 

[Koshling]

Well it leads to Printing Press and Romanticism.

For now (as a short term measure) I think we should move the free GA from poetry to Romanticism

 

[BlueGenie]

Tip: If using the BUG Option to limit stack sizes and get an endless WFoC you can get out of it without restarting the game if it's because of Stack Limits.

1. You'll notice that you can move the map around with the arrow keys or by the edge of the screen while the "Waiting for other civilizations" flashes without pause. This indicates that the WFoC is due to Stack Limits.

2. Press CRTL+ALT+o, or the Ladybug button if you can hit it.

3. Change the Stack Limit to a higher number than you have. 1 is usually enough but do 5 higher or remove limits for the turn.

4. Exit BUG and wait for the turn to finish.

5. Enter BUG again when it's your turn and set the Stack Limit back again.

Cheers