C2C - UEM - Ultimate-Earth-Map 100% MOD and SVN update compatible by Pit2015

[Pit2015]

Look into the AI citys, mostly all AI civs now at -50 to -200 gold a turn. As thunderbrd said, AI needs to be reprogrammed/rewriten. AI is totaly bugged now and unable to improve propertys and unable to manage gold, look education and crime values on your game in the AI citys. Changing these options will not fix that. India, australia, zulu, aborigines, sitting bull... france... all to -50 to -200 gold a turn now, the others will follow when they have the tech that gives them the crime, they build more citys and useless stacks of troops, log rams.

Also yourself you got -130 gold now, even if you go 100% gold you will do -120 gold currently, you did autoplay right? So you will go bankrupt in some turns also...

Also AI never builds community disscussions, what makes them to not be able to build myths fast at start, takes them to lang to get knowledge inhertiance, making the AI fall back in research alot because they can start to build myths buildings to late.

So dont tell me that i think -50 to -200 gold per turn on some AI civs is wet and good. Some AI civs get -800 education and +600 crime on your save, at about 380 turns in your game if i remember correctly. Agressive AI is not enabled in scenario. Tech diffusion is unrealistic, will not fix the AI bugs and cheat the AI to keep up with the player or the player with the AI, what we need is to make the AI able to build myths fast, so same chances for all. That meens AI has to the free community disscusion building from start or they should be able to build it. Raging babarians is no problem here not many babarians on map now and the AI has enouth defense, its just the bugged AI that cause these problems.

So turn further your savegame 100 to 200 turns and provide save again if you like, i will look into this then again and see how mutch gold is left on the AI civs.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@Pit,

Get current SVN update 8928. Will help you some. Many small adjustments to Crime giving and crime reducing building with names from A thru M. This is Part 1 of a 2 part adjustment phase.

And that Marathon game is now almost at turn 500 and Deganawida (made Peace), Sitting Bull, and Pacal are all doing fine. Some of what you posted above seems to be a mix of things from the Eternity game and the Marathon game.

JosEPh

 

[Pit2015]

Joseph, the AI looks to you like they doing good, but they loos to mutch gold and cant build stuff to increase there propertys good enouth, also they overbuild units so they cant pay them, theres some work on the AI needed and more fixes needed. At least the AI will not deleting its units when they run out of gold, but then there will be revolution to them always because they have financial problems. Not only the crime is doing that mutch - gold i think. Has nothing to do with the gamespeeds. Eternity is even better for the AI because it takes the AI longer to get hit by crimes because it takes the AI longer to research.

Ok will test if the new SVN helps a bit, upload the game at your 500 turns here please i have to look up more things.

Also you got a game with no scenario or a normal C2C game with any other map where you got a save from 300 to 5000 turns? Then upload it here also, i want to look how the AI is doing with 0 gold at start, maybe the 20000 extra gold that i give them in the UEM scenario may cause problems because the AI may think oh we have enouth gold letz build what we can, but then later it cant pay everything. So upload any other savegame if you still have one please.

Here look, i now set all to 0 gold in your game at turn 398 and they still doing about -70 gold, also with new SVN update, the aboriginals i dont set the gold to 0 you see the have -106 now in your game:

 

[Noriad2]

@Pit2015: something is odd about the first picture. The education seems too low. AI plays on noble; if I start a game at noble, I get -1 education per pop. Even with Education civic on Military Tradition (-5 edu) a size 13 city should have at worst -18 edu/turn which would bottom out at -450, assuming the city has no education bonus whatsoever (which is unlikely). Yet the education level is at -491 and still going down. So unless the rules have changed since V36 came out, something isn't right

 

[Pit2015]

@Pit2015: something is odd about the first picture. The education seems too low. AI plays on noble; if I start a game at noble, I get -1 education per pop. Even with Education civic on Military Tradition (-5 edu) a size 13 city should have at worst -18 edu/turn which would bottom out at -450, assuming the city has no education bonus whatsoever (which is unlikely). Yet the education level is at -491 and still going down. So unless the rules have changed since V36 came out, something isn't right

These screenshots are all from the same turn, as you see not all civs so super low at education. Maybe its just that the AI builds to less education buildings. But maybe your right and there is a problem, but then i think the problem should be there for every civ? The Aborigines look better in education, last screenshot.

 

[Noriad2]

What I meant was not that the AI was weak and failing at building enough education, I wonder whether such low education levels were even POSSIBLE under the rules of Noble difficulty. I'd go through the buildings and count education bonuses and compare it to the actual levels. Is it possible the AI in this scenario somehow plays at a higher difficulty level than Noble?

 

[Thunderbrd]

If nightmare mode is on they likely are 2 levels higher than standard noble.

 

[Noriad2]

If nightmare mode is on they likely are 2 levels higher than standard noble.

Is that WAD? I would have guessed that Nightmare mode only affects the player,
not the AI.

If Nightmare mode also affects the AI then that would explain Pit2015's complaints.

Perhaps there is a difference between AI nations created in game startup and in
Worldbuilder?

Anyway, I ask Pit2015 to calculate the Education consumption by population
in the AI cities he screenshotted, by guessing the total education value the city
is stabilizing towards, then assume 4% decay towards zero, adding or subtracting
the education from buildings (including palace) and civics, and then dividing the
resulting number by the population size.
If the resulting number is 1, the AI is on normal Noble. If it is considerably higher
then it is on Nightmare (not sure what the value would be).

(guide to properties: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=13840526#post13840526 ;might be outdated in places)

 

[Pit2015]

Nightmare is not enabled in my scenario. I dont think its enabled in josephs savegame also, i will check later, have to hurry now. Test and look into the savegame on page 2 here in this thread yourself if you like.

File: TEST-GW Marathon BC-5775.7z All ai citys clickable to look into.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Is that WAD? I would have guessed that Nightmare mode only affects the player,
not the AI.

Can someone illuminate me as to the meaning of the term WAD?

I advised that Noble be unchanged in Nightmare mode but this didn't sit with the developer.

 

[Noriad2]

Can someone illuminate me as to the meaning of the term WAD?

WAD = working as designed. Which means it was deliberate instead of a bug.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Can someone illuminate me as to the meaning of the term WAD?

I advised that Noble be unchanged in Nightmare mode but this didn't sit with the developer.

WAD = Works As Designed.

Nightmare Mode doesn't exactly make it 2 levels higher. Found this out while adjusting Traits. For Crime it was adding 1 to the standard base value for each level of difficulty. Would need to look at it again for exactly how the range of values are used. I do remember that with regular C2C the C/pop on Deity is 5 but on NM it is 6.

Would need to look at the range for Education and Educations base property value.

Traits are going to affect the AI Civs use of different properties differently just because of Who they have as a Leader and What Trait Options were used plus level of Difficulty. This is were % usage for Modifiers gets "dangerous".

@Pit you have City Limits active in some form (Options, there are several) in your Scenario. These "City Limit" Options also cause different leaders to act "oddly".

I have argued and discussed in the past that these particular "city limits" Options need to be removed. The Mod has changed very much from when they were 1st introduced (v 17 thru 24) and are no longer relevant to good AI play and are now redundant. And that was added to after the Leader traits were changed from Sgt. Slicks' original set introduced in v27 to the Trait set we have now (which is nowhere near what Slick started with) and it's associated trait Options.

@Noriad2,
I don't think Pit will get a "1" from doing as you stated. And not because NM might have been used. Because the base value used for Noble would be closer to 3 than a 1. Settler may work out to a value of 1. Deity should be close to 5.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

Traits are going to affect the AI Civs use of different properties differently just because of Who they have as a Leader and What Trait Options were used plus level of Difficulty. This is were % usage for Modifiers gets "dangerous".

Not sure I follow the leap from the first sentence to the next.

However, ultimately the problem beneath the entire discussion here is that the AI has not yet been taught anything about valuing the enhancement of positive properties. (aka education) This makes addressing that important. However, the coding for giving it value for addressing negative properties is a bit confusing and as for units, I'm not sure its WAP itself

 

[JosEPh_II]

The current AIWeight is set to 100. Perhaps it needs bumped up to 150?

Also there are 20 Negative levels and 20 Positive levels for Education that are all affected by many variables (one of which is Traits), that give "pressures and influences" (for want of a better description) to the Education Property system.

As to your 1st statement T-brd, rather easy to see how that "leap" comes about. Excessive usage of % Modifiers causes undo complications when those implementing the %'s are not aware of where those % will affect beyond what they are focused on. Has happened in the Mod's history Multiple times.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

The current AIWeight is set to 100. Perhaps it needs bumped up to 150?

Also there are 20 Negative levels and 20 Positive levels for Education that are all affected by many variables (one of which is Traits), that give "pressures and influences" (for want of a better description) to the Education Property system.

As to your 1st statement T-brd, rather easy to see how that "leap" comes about. Excessive usage of % Modifiers causes undo complications when those implementing the %'s are not aware of where those % will affect beyond what they are focused on. Has happened in the Mod's history Multiple times.

JosEPh

I don't think AI weight is the problem... it's a coding issue. I'm not getting the values I'm looking for when making a few key callouts.

Education is a positive property and as a result some notes in the code indicating there's no support for that yet shows me that we need to get working on that.

As for the % modifiers... there's a time and place for % and a time and place for +/-. Both can be problematic if used improperly.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@Pit,
Grab the latest SVN and apply to your Scenario. Many Individual crime changes. 1 less crime in Preh Era that also had a - attached to it. Many Individual crimes with - reduced or changed to -% modifiers to scale by city size. Some now have -Culture and or Research instead of High loses.

JosEPh

 

[Pit2015]

Gold problem is also important, theres someting needed that tells the AI dont build anything what cost you more gold when you have more then -10 gold a turn or somethin like this.

But first i will run a test and see what happens if i reset the gold to 0 at start for all civs, maybe the AI will freak out because they think they have alot of gold letz happy build what we can get. But i dont think its the problem because i gave that gold to the AI some versions before because they got bankrupt. So when this is a problem the AI will ever freak out if they get some thousands gold if they do a diplomatic deal.

Also i will reset this gold conserve variable that was original at 50 and is now at 40 in the mod, maybe that makes the AI use more gold then they can affort, Joseph can you run 500 turns this game when i provide it? I am low on time currently, otherwise i will do it asap.

Then we can see if the gold problem is fixable easy or if it needs coding. Other propertys needs coding for sure and also more AI weight to the important buildings maybe, needs both.

@JosEPh I get always the new SVN, may help a bit but will not give the AI 100 more gold to fix that -120 gold... can you run the test game if i provide with the test changes JosEPh?

 

[Pit2015]

C2C - Ultimate Earth Map V2.6 released

Changes in C2C - Ultimate Earth Map V2.6 100% MOD and SVN update compatible:

Changelog Map 2.6
Great Lakes in North America expanded.
All lakes changed to lake shore as it should be.
Some misplaced arctic forrest changed to normal forrest.
Fixed some more rivers.

Changelog Scenario 2.6
All civs start now with 0 gold, AI gold problem has to be fixed in the mod.

-Pit2015

 

[Pit2015]

Ok looks like i fixed the AI gold bug... also the AI does not build to much useless units that they cant affort. Best is with this setting the AI also stills build enouth new citys, but saves enouth gold before they build a new city, same as the player will do.

So you have to change this form 40 to <iDefineIntVal>10</iDefineIntVal> to make this work (Then the AI is able to handle gold correctly and still builds enouth citys, AI is increasing there gold reserves also slowly now):

\Assets\XML\GlobalDefines.xml

<!-- Size Matters Most end -->
<!-- AI Gold Slider Safety Percent begin -->
<!-- This is the BASE amount of slider allocation required towards gold that the AI feels comfortable with -->
<!-- It noteworthily affects how much tolerance the AI has where it feels ready to grow -->
<!-- Reduce to make the AI more sensitive to gold concerns and increase for more reckless behavior -->
<!-- This may be rather interesting to convert to an AI personality matter or at least give a personality based modifier eventually -->
<!-- Original Value was set to 50 - I've adjusted to 40.-->
<Define>
<DefineName>SAFE_GOLD_PERCENT</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>10</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>
Only one problem still exist as it looks like, the AI cant build anti crime buildings effectivly, so the -15 gold at mugging crime is makeing all new founded citys for the AI with some maintainance to -20 gold maintainance, the -15 gold has to be removed or the crime has to be pushed back to masonry, so AI maybe can build police units, but best should be to take all -gold from the crimes. AI cant handle this as it looks like. Look up the screenshots from australia for that.

Ignore the -gold from the player USA in the map screenshots, its because i placed special agents to look into the AI civs. USA player had also +gold with this setting. Autralia has already the crime mugging hitting him, so all his citys produce -15 gold for him now and he has 4 citys now, all other civs in the screenshots dont have the mugging crime now and they still in positiv gold. 4 citys 4 * -15 gold = -60 gold, now the australia civ has -61 gold, so normaly they will have -1 gold with my fix now.

Look up this save and the screenshots from a marathon game, all civs do good now, only australia not because the crime mugging crime hits all of his new foundet citys. AI is with my change now able to conserve gold correctly, also they still found enouth new citys. Otherwise a new founded city should give +15 gold from start as ground income to fix this last problem, best is remove all -gold from crimes. At least on all crimes before masonry, but we have to see if the AI is able to fight crime with police units after masonry, otherwise all -gold has to be removed from all crimes.

EDIT: Where are the -gold added to the crimes in the mod? I will remove that -gold on crimes completely or reduce it by 80%, then the AI should work fine with the other changes.

 

[JosEPh_II]

You will help the AI a lot if you stop using the Option: Upscaled Unit and Building Costs. The AI does Not know how to handle this. Also stop using the City limits Options, they hurt the AI as well.

JosEPh