C2C - Units

[Hydromancerx]

That will work for me. We would have three different Renaissance heavy mounted units (Cuirassier, Carabineer, Cavalry), but they would form a nice neat line.

Good. So you will make the Cuirassier and Carabineer or do you need help from ls612?

 

[Vokarya]

Good. So you will make the Cuirassier and Carabineer or do you need help from ls612?

I can make them, but I'd like to point out that I just committed the Renaissance tech changes to the SVN. Take a look and see if you think the Cuirassier tech move is still necessary. Cavalry Tactics got moved backwards 3 columns (so it's one step away from Matchlock), and I think that brings the Cuirassier location into line with the history without having to move it to another tech. I'll probably move the Lancer somewhere else, but I have to find out where; there aren't a lot of good military techs between Flintlock and Rifling.

I should have finished the Renaissance tech changes first, because they really do bear on this discussion. I feel like I'm a little under the gun right now because I have so many ideas percolating.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well if we take your timeline ...

- Matchlock (x43) = 1475
- Calvary Tactics (x44) = 1550
- Flintlock (x45) = 1610

- Heavy Cuirassier = 1500-1600
- Dragoon = 1600-1700
- Light Cuirassier = 1700-1800

So from a historical point of view columns X43 to X45 are quite squished. However from a game point of view it make sense for the firearm level to match with the 3 mounted units just like its matches with the 3 type of infantry.

The Dragoon and Lancer look just as squished in that you have the Dragoon upgrade to the Lancer and they are right next to each other on the chart.

So I am assuming it goes like this (see attachment)

To make a long story short I would like to keep it to what I proposed in post #237 despite the tech changes you made.

 

[Il Principe]

An idea inspired by this discussion, and probably failing because of graphics: Horse Artillery.
It could eist in paralell to Carabineers and Cavalary, being a bit weaker then the Artillery of its time ( which is either light artilelry aor artillery..been a while sicne I reached industrial ), but having two movement points, so it could keep up with more mobile forces like the horse untis of the time.

 

[Vokarya]

Well if we take your timeline ...

- Matchlock (x43) = 1475
- Calvary Tactics (x44) = 1550
- Flintlock (x45) = 1610

- Heavy Cuirassier = 1500-1600
- Dragoon = 1600-1700
- Light Cuirassier = 1700-1800

So from a historical point of view columns X43 to X45 are quite squished. However from a game point of view it make sense for the firearm level to match with the 3 mounted units just like its matches with the 3 type of infantry.

The Dragoon and Lancer look just as squished in that you have the Dragoon upgrade to the Lancer and they are right next to each other on the chart.

So I am assuming it goes like this (see attachment)

To make a long story short I would like to keep it to what I proposed in post #237 despite the tech changes you made.

OK. I think what we really need is for Cavalry Tactics to move up on the tree -- the tech seems so vague that we could put it just about anywhere. How about this?

Cavalry Tactics
Required techs: Flintlock AND Mounted Archery (just about any other tech prerequisite would be redundant)
Location: X46 Y1

That way you have some space between the Cuirassier (now sitting at Matchlock) and the Lancer and Carabineer (one tech after Flintlock). There aren't very many military technologies between Flintlock and Rifling.

 

[Vokarya]

One more thing: I think Cavalry needs to be at Military Tradition, if only to give Military Tradition a unit. Right now, you don't get any units for Mil Trad, which seems wrong. (Naval Tactics also has this problem, but I'll get to that in a bit.)

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Vokarya

Ok we can see how that goes I guess. Just make sure the other Culture units based on the Cavalry or Cuirassier get their tech requirements and unit upgrades tweaked as well.

 

[ls612]

An idea inspired by this discussion, and probably failing because of graphics: Horse Artillery.
It could eist in paralell to Carabineers and Cavalary, being a bit weaker then the Artillery of its time ( which is either light artilelry aor artillery..been a while sicne I reached industrial ), but having two movement points, so it could keep up with more mobile forces like the horse untis of the time.

I think that the current Artillery pieces are assumed to be transported by horses. As you said, the graphics would be an issue in making the horses actually visible. And the Horse Artillery could normally only keep up with the infantry, so them having a move of 1 makes sense.

 

[Vokarya]

OK, the Renaissance Mounted units are all up on the SVN now. New units are Carabinier, Dragoon, and Lancer.

Cuirassier and Conquistador are now Strength 16, cost 250, tech requirements Matchlock + Armored Cavalry. They upgrade to Carabinier or Lancer. Cuirassier also uses the Heavy Cuirassier artwork, but I don't know about the ethnic Cuirassier art.

I also adjusted the core Cavalry units so that they just require Rifling + Military Tradition. I moved them backwards off Steam Power, and then removed the redundant Cavalry Tactics and Stirrup. This applies to:

• Apache Cavalry
• Camel Gunner
• Cavalry
• Cossack
• Mountie
• Rurales

The other units that should get this change are:

• Boer Cavalry
• Hussar
• Llanero
• Mambise
• Zebra Cavalry

I don't know about the Elephant Gunner and Outlaw.

Also, do we want to move the Bombard Elephant, Bombard Mammoth, and Zebra Cuirassier off Cavalry Tactics?

This is the code I used for the new Cavalry tech requirements, so it appears properly at Military Tradition.

<PrereqTech>TECH_MILITARY_TRADITION</PrereqTech>
	<TechTypes>
		<PrereqTech>TECH_RIFLING</PrereqTech>
	</TechTypes>

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Vokarya

1. Outlaw should stay at Steam Power

2. Elephant Gunner can be like the Camel Gunner.

Also, do we want to move the Bombard Elephant, Bombard Mammoth, and Zebra Cuirassier off Cavalry Tactics?

3. Yeah I think so.

 

[ls612]

The other units that should get this change are:

• Boer Cavalry
• Hussar
• Llanero
• Mambise
• Zebra Cavalry

Already changed those ones a while back on the SVN.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The medic and healer units are not quite correct. I thought we were going to reduce the cost of the healer and the cost of the medic is supposed to be more than that of the surgeon.

 

[ls612]

The medic and healer units are not quite correct. I thought we were going to reduce the cost of the healer and the cost of the medic is supposed to be more than that of the surgeon.

I changed it instead that they all reduce Disease in the city. That way they are worth their cost, same as Police Units.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I changed it instead that they all reduce Disease in the city. That way they are worth their cost, same as Police Units.

The surgeon costs 8 per turn upgrades to the medic which costs 6 per turn. All the other figures are upgrades just not the cost.

 

[ls612]

The surgeon costs 8 per turn upgrades to the medic which costs 6 per turn. All the other figures are upgrades just not the cost.

Oh, I misunderstood. It should be the other way around now on the SVN(surgeon costs 6 gold and upgrades to medic at 8 gold).

 

[Vokarya]

When I was redoing the Renaissance Era Tech Tree, I noticed a couple things about ships.

Clipper Merchant: This currently requires Chemistry. Is there a particular reason for it to be there? I feel like that is left over from the original mod and doesn't make sense with our tech tree, and it should be moved to Sextant, since Sextant has no units of its own right now. What do you think?

Ship of the Line: This unit currently requires Military Science. I don't think this should be pushed off to the Industrial Era, and I would like to move it to Naval Tactics, since the Naval Tactics of the tech is the "line of battle" from which the Ship of the Line takes its name.

This is the current setup for the warships of the Renaissance Era and early Industrial Era.

Unit Frigate Man'O'War Ship of the Line Ironclad Iron Frigate
Techs Naval Cannon Naval Cannon Naval Cannon Screw Propeller Steel
Tech 2 Navigation Grand War Military Science Military Science Military Science
Strength 18 24 32 24 30
Mods +50% vs. Galleon +50% vs. Galleon +100% vs. Wooden +25% vs. Wooden
Speed 5 4 5 3 4
Withdraw 20% 20% 20% 0% 20%
Bombard 10% 15% 12% 12% 10%
Ranged Acc 60 60 70 70 70
Upgrades to Iron Frigate Ship of the Line Ironclad Early Destroyer Early Destroyer

This is what I would like to move it to (changes in bold):

Unit Frigate Ship of the Line Man'O'War Ironclad Iron Frigate
Techs Naval Cannon Naval Cannon Naval Cannon Screw Propeller Steel
Tech 2 Navigation Naval Tactics Grand War Military Science Military Science
Strength 18 24 30 24 30
Mods +50% vs. Galleon +50% vs. Galleon +100% vs. Wooden +25% vs. Wooden
Speed 5 4 4 3 4
Withdraw 20% 20% 20% 0% 20%
Bombard 10% 12% 15% 12% 10%
Ranged Acc 60 60 60 70 70
Upgrades to Iron Frigate Man'O'War Ironclad, Ironclad Frigate Early Destroyer Early Destroyer

Because the Iron Frigate is effectively Strength 40 against Wooden Ships and the Ironclad is Strength 48, I think we can have the Man'O'War at Strength 30 be the strongest Wooden Ship and still be outclassed by most steamships (except the Paddle Steamer, but that's a cargo ship). I also would like to allow the Man'O'War to upgrade to the Iron Frigate so it isn't stuck as a coast-bound ship, which it is if it can only upgrade to Ironclad. (I remember getting really annoyed back when playing my v16 game that I was using Man'O'War as a flagship for my escort fleets -- 1 Man'O'War, 4 Frigates, 6 Galleons -- and then when I upgraded them to steamships, the Man'O'War couldn't upgrade because it would be coast-bound).

Let me know what you think of these.

 

[Vokarya]

@Vokarya

1. Outlaw should stay at Steam Power

2. Elephant Gunner can be like the Camel Gunner.

3. Yeah I think so.

Fair enough. Outlaw is a crime unit, so it can have different requirements from the rest of the Cavalry group. I will tweak Elephant Gunner tonight -- I still have to do the removal of redundant tech prerequisites that I proposed earlier.

Who has authority over the Alt_Timelines folders? I can fix those units too, but I don't want to step on anyone's toes. I think also Llama Rider needs to upgrade to Llama Archer and not Autogyro/Armored Car.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Vokarya

Hold off on the ships. I will get to those after ls612 and I finish sorting out the Aircraft.

 

[Vokarya]

@Vokarya

Hold off on the ships. I will get to those after ls612 and I finish sorting out the Aircraft.

OK. It was just something I came across when I was revamping the Renaissance tech tree.

 

[Vokarya]

Already changed those ones a while back on the SVN.

It looks like you changed them to Cavalry Tactics + Flintlock + Rifling. This is a second round of changes; Steam Power is getting replaced by Military Tradition (moving the Cavalry back into the Renaissance) and then Cavalry Tactics is deleted as it's redundant.