C2C - Units

[Hydromancerx]

@Vokarya

Could you tweak the Knight (and Knight based culture units) so it upgrades to the Dragoon too? Thanks!

 

[Vokarya]

@Vokarya

Could you tweak the Knight (and Knight based culture units) so it upgrades to the Dragoon too? Thanks!

I thought about it, but I'm not sure that it works. If I give the Knight a choice of two upgrades, then the Knight still shows on the build lists when the Cuirassier becomes available. That doesn't make much sense to me for the Knight to stick around at that point. What if the Cuirassier gets a three-way upgrade path instead: to Carabinier or Lancer or Dragoon? Then Cuirassier and Dragoon show up together, and Cuirassier disappears at Cavalry Tactics when Carabinier and Lancer appear.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Vokarya

A bit confusing but ok.

 

[Vokarya]

@Vokarya

A bit confusing but ok.

Personally, I don't think it's any more confusing than to see a completely overshadowed unit show up on the build lists; I'll do it once I get some commentary on the list of redundant unit techs.

 

[Vokarya]

Here is a complete list of redundant tech prerequisites on non-Hero units in the core CIV4_UnitInfos.xml file that can be safely removed without changing gameplay at all. I did not try to touch the Hero units; there is a separate issue there, and that is the undeclared technology prerequisite of the underlying culture building. Several hero units have the problem of having their tech prerequisites come available long before their culture becomes available (there is at least one Vietnamese hero that is a Medieval Era unit, making it completely obsolete as a military unit).

You will notice I am asking to remove some techs that may look fundamental to a unit. For example, I would like to remove Canine Domestication from all Canine units except for the basic Trained Dogs. This is deliberate; I don't think we should be using a technology to tie units together. If you want a list of all Canine units, that is what the Canine Unit Class Categories page is for.

Also, if a technology for a unit is redundant, it doesn't tell the player anything about what else is required should the player actually want to build the unit. Technologies should show the player what becomes available as soon as they reach the technology, or as close to it as we can get (some units require different technologies that are not redundant, so it won't be perfect).

I will do these deletions myself in a day or two unless someone can come up with a very good reason not to. This is only to remove redundancies, not to actually change units in any gameplay fashion.

Spoiler :

Archery

• Atlatl: Delete Hunting (Hunting - Poison Crafting - Naturopathy - Adhesives - Composite Tools - Spear Making - Spearfishing - Atlatl Making)
• Light Crossbowman: Delete Archery (Archery - Copper Working - Metal Casting - Bronze Working - Monarchy - Construction - Ancient Ballistics)
• Crossbowman, Cho-ko-nu: Delete Archery (Archery - Copper Working - Metal Casting - Bronze Working - Monarchy - Iron Working - Siege Warfare - Machinery - Paved Roads - Engineering)
• Heavy Crossbowman: Delete Archery (Archery - Copper Working - Metal Casting - Bronze Working - Monarchy - Iron Working - Siege Warfare - Machinery - Paved Roads - Engineering - Alchemy - Invention - Gunpowder - Metallurgy)
• Longbowman: Delete Archery (Archery - Copper Working - Metal Casting - Bronze Working - Monarchy - Code of Laws - Feudalism)

Canine

• War Dogs: Delete Canine Domestication (Canine Domestication - Hunting - Games - Hunting Tactics - Tribalism - Chiefdom - Sedentary Lifestyle - Agriculture - Pottery - Mining - Copper Working - Metal Casting - Bronze Working)
• Guard Dogs: Delete Canine Domestication (Canine Domestication - Hunting - Games - Hunting Tactics - Tribalism - Chiefdom - Sedentary Lifestyle - Agriculture - Pottery - Mining - Copper Working - Metal Casting - Bronze Working - Monarchy - Iron Working - Stirrup - Armored Cavalry - Chivalry - Leadership)
• Police Dogs: Delete Canine Domestication (Canine Domestication - Hunting - Games - Hunting Tactics - Tribalism - Chiefdom - Sedentary Lifestyle - Agriculture - Pottery - Mining - Copper Working - Metal Casting - Bronze Working - Monarchy - Iron Working - Stirrup - Armored Cavalry - Chivalry - Leadership - Colonialism - Corporation - Patent Rights - Economics - Replaceable Parts - Steam Power - Marxism - Criminology)
• Canis Superior: Delete Canine Domestication (Canine Domestication - Hunting - Games - Hunting Tactics - Tribalism - Chiefdom - Sedentary Lifestyle - Agriculture - Pottery - Mining - Copper Working - Metal Casting - Bronze Working - Monarchy - Iron Working - Stirrup - Armored Cavalry - Chivalry - Leadership - Colonialism - Corporation - Patent Rights - Economics - Replaceable Parts - Steam Power - Marxism - Criminology - Firefighting - Fire Suppression - Astro Environmental Systems - Lunar Exploration - Astrogeology - Astrobiology - Genesis Biology - Liquid Metals - Nanogenerators - Holographics - Artificial Intelligence - Universal Translator - Homo Superior)

Melee

• Carib Blowgunner: Delete Hunting (Hunting - Poison Crafting)
• Inuit Harpooner: Delete Hunting (Hunting - Poison Crafting - Naturopathy - Adhesives - Personal Adornment - Sewing - Tanning - Boat Building - Boat Fishing - Harpoon Making)
• Koa: Delete Bone Working (Bone Working - Adhesives - Composite Tools - Spear Making - Spearfishing - Boat Fishing)
• Olmec Eagle Warrior: Delete Spear Making (Spear Making - Warfare - Obsidian Weapons)
• Javelineer, Spearman, Assyrian Redu, Kanem-Bornu: Delete Hunting (Hunting - Games - Hunting Tactics - Tribalism - Chiefdom - Sedentary Lifestyle - Agriculture - Pottery - Mining - Copper Working)

Mounted

• Mounted Infantry: Delete Bronze Working (Bronze Working - Military Training - Horse Breeding)
• War Elephant, Siam Elephant: Delete Elephant Domestication (Elephant Domestication - Armored Cavalry)

Siege

• Huron Manlet: Delete Warfare (Warfare - Obsidian Weapons)
• Battering Ram: Delete Carpentry (Carpentry - Tribalism - Chiefdom - Sedentary Lifestyle - Agriculture - Pottery - The Wheel) and delete Warfare (Warfare - Hunting Tactics - Tribalism - Chiefdom - Sedentary Lifestyle - Agriculture - Pottery - The Wheel)

Gunpowder

• Ancient Hand Cannon: Delete Ancient Ballistics (Ancient Ballistics - Siege Warfare - Machinery - Paved Roads - Engineering - Alchemy)
• Rifleman, Klamath Rifleman, Navajo Rifleman, Redcoat: Delete Flintlock (Flintlock - Explosives - Rifling)
• Sheriff: Delete Flintlock (Flintlock - Explosives - Rifling)
• Modern Grenadier: Delete Industrialism (Industrialism - Automatic Weapons)
• Guerrilla: Delete Automatic Weapons (Automatic Weapons - Guerrilla Warfare)

Tracked

• Light Tank, Tank, Heavy Tank, Panzer: Delete Radio (Radio - Mechanized Warfare)
• Plasma Armor: Delete Controlled Plasma (Controlled Plasma - Graphene - Railgun)

Hi-Tech

• ACV, ACVSAM: Delete Modern Warfare (Modern Warfare - Cloud Computing - Machine Learning - Genesis Biology - Liquid Metals - Nanogenerators - Plastic Electronics - Nanoelectronics)

Helicopter

• Hybrid Gunship: Delete Vertical Flight (Vertical Flight - Astronautics - Communication Networks - Unmanned Air Vehicles - Military Robotics)
• Dropship: Delete Military Robotics (Military Robotics - Railgun - Warmachines)

Wooden Ships

• War Canoe: Delete Boat Building (Boat Building - Boat Fishing - Harpoon Making)
• Trireme: Delete Naval Warfare (Naval Warfare - Piracy - Seafaring - Ship Building)
• Quinquireme: Delete Ship Building (Ship Building - Ancient Ballistics)
• Man'O'War: Delete Naval Cannon (Naval Cannon - Naval Tactics - Sextant - Grand War)
• Ship of the Line: Delete Naval Cannon (Naval Cannon - Naval Tactics - Sextant - Grand War - Military Science)

Steam Ships

• Paddle Steamer: Delete Astrolabe (Astrolabe - Astronomy - Critical Thought - Scientific Method - Enlightenment - Liberalism - Economics - Replaceable Parts - Steam Power)
• Iron Frigate: Delete Steam Power (Steam Power - Steel)
• Early Destroyer: Delete Assembly Line (Assembly Line - Nitroglycerine - Semi-Automatic Weapons - Artillery)
• Pre-Dreadnought: Delete Assembly Line (Assembly Line - Nitroglycerine - Semi-Automatic Weapons - Artillery) and delete Screw Propeller (Screw Propeller - Combustion)
• Battlecruiser: Delete Combustion (Combustion - Industrialism)

Diesel Ships

• Transport: Delete Screw Propeller (Screw Propeller - Combustion - Industrialism - Advanced Metallurgy - Motorized Transportation)
• Battleship: Delete Manufacturing (Manufacturing - Semiconductors)
• Carrier: Delete Radar (Radar - Naval Aviation)

Submarines

• Attack Submarine: Delete Submarine Warfare (Submarine Warfare - Sonar)
• Nuclear Submarine: Delete Submarine Warfare (Submarine Warfare - Sonar)
• Stealth Submarine: Delete Submarine Warfare (Submarine Warfare - Sonar)
• Fusion Submarine: Delete Guided Weapons (Guided Weapons - Modern Warfare - Cloud Computing - Wearable Computers - Flash Memory - Micromechanics - Microgenerators - Fusion)

Early Bombers

• Airship: Delete Thermodynamics (Thermodynamics - Combustion - Flight - Zeppelins)

Jet Fighters

• Jet Fighter: Delete Manufacturing (Manufacturing - Semiconductors - Guided Weapons) and delete Semiconductors (Semiconductors - Guided Weapons)

Recon Aircraft

• Hypersonic Recon Plane: Delete Modern Physics (Modern Physics - Manufacturing - Jet Propulsion)

Doomsday

• A-Bomb: Delete Fission (Fission - Modern Physics - Aerodynamics)
• Hydrogen Bomb: Delete Guided Weapons (Guided Weapons - Modern Warfare)
• IRBM, MRBM: Delete Fission (Fission - Modern Physics - Manufacturing - Jet Propulsion)
• ICBM: Delete Fission (Fission - Modern Physics - Advanced Rocketry)
• Fusion Nuke: Delete Fuel Cells (Fuel Cells - Biomaterials - Biomathematics - Micromechanics - Microgenerators - Fusion)
• Fusion Nova: Delete Fusion (Fusion - Shielding)
• Peace Maker: Delete Nuclear Power (Nuclear Power - Ecology - Recycling - Fuel Cells - Biomaterials - Biomathematics - Micromechanics - Microgenerators - Ubiquitous Computing - Mesh Networks - Ontological Engineering - Advanced Computers - Superstrong Alloys) and delete Fuel Cells (Fuel Cells - Biomaterials - Biomathematics - Micromechanics - Microgenerators - Ubiquitous Computing - Mesh Networks - Ontological Engineering - Advanced Computers - Superstrong Alloys)

Nanite

• Nanite Cloud: Delete Nanobotics (Nanobotics - Optronics - Terra Computer - Weather Control)

 

[Vokarya]

Another thing that I came across when I was looking at units and their tech prerequisites is the Siege Weapons Workshop. Because the Siege Weapons Workshop is at Siege Warfare, any unit that requires the Workshop needs to require Siege Warfare or any technology with Siege Warfare as a prerequisite somewhere on its chain in order to be accurate as to when the unit becomes available. There are three units that I would like to change to Siege Warfare that are currently at Ancient Ballistics:

• Ancient Rocketeer
• Ballista
• Ballista Elephant

Furthermore, once Ancient Rocketeer is changed to Siege Warfare, Iron Working is redundant and can be removed (Iron Working leads directly to Siege Warfare).

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Another thing that I came across when I was looking at units and their tech prerequisites is the Siege Weapons Workshop. Because the Siege Weapons Workshop is at Siege Warfare, any unit that requires the Workshop needs to require Siege Warfare or any technology with Siege Warfare as a prerequisite somewhere on its chain in order to be accurate as to when the unit becomes available. There are three units that I would like to change to Siege Warfare that are currently at Ancient Ballistics:

• Ancient Rocketeer
• Ballista
• Ballista Elephant

Furthermore, once Ancient Rocketeer is changed to Siege Warfare, Iron Working is redundant and can be removed (Iron Working leads directly to Siege Warfare).

I feel like at least one of the real (i.e. collateral damage-causing, city attacking) siege engines should become available at Ancient Ballistics so it's not just a carrier for the light crossbowman, but the Ballista is too strong and is a counter-Catapult unit anyway. (Well, sort of. Since it's sometimes the first Power 9 unit available it can also be a main combat unit that happens to be extra strong against Catapults.)

Is there any chance Catapult could be moved to Ancient Ballistics and have its Siege Weapons Workshop requirement removed, while Ballista, Ballista Elephant and Ancient Rocketeer move to Siege Warfare? (I'd also like to see the Siege Weapons Workshop requirement removed from Ancient Rocketeer, to give players a reason to build Ancient Rocketeers instead of Ballistae.

I'm assuming having the Siege Weapons Workshop requirement removed entirely is a lost battle, even though these wooden siege engines were almost exclusively built in the field historically.

 

[Vokarya]

I feel like at least one of the real (i.e. collateral damage-causing, city attacking) siege engines should become available at Ancient Ballistics so it's not just a carrier for the light crossbowman, but the Ballista is too strong and is a counter-Catapult unit anyway. (Well, sort of. Since it's sometimes the first Power 9 unit available it can also be a main combat unit that happens to be extra strong against Catapults.)

Is there any chance Catapult could be moved to Ancient Ballistics and have its Siege Weapons Workshop requirement removed, while Ballista, Ballista Elephant and Ancient Rocketeer move to Siege Warfare? (I'd also like to see the Siege Weapons Workshop requirement removed from Ancient Rocketeer, to give players a reason to build Ancient Rocketeers instead of Ballistae.

I'm assuming having the Siege Weapons Workshop requirement removed entirely is a lost battle, even though these wooden siege engines were almost exclusively built in the field historically.

I agree there's a pile-up of early Siege units. I think either Catapult or Ballista should be moved from Siege Weapons Workshop to Carpenter's Workshop and allowed to stay at Ancient Ballistics, but I'm not sure which one.

I don't usually build Ancient Rocketeer; XP for Gunpowder units is so hard to come by in the early game that I prefer training high-XP Melee units until they go obsolete. I think of Rocketeer as a very early gun "line unit" and always use Catapults for my siege train.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I agree there's a pile-up of early Siege units. I think either Catapult or Ballista should be moved from Siege Weapons Workshop to Carpenter's Workshop and allowed to stay at Ancient Ballistics, but I'm not sure which one.

I don't usually build Ancient Rocketeer; XP for Gunpowder units is so hard to come by in the early game that I prefer training high-XP Melee units until they go obsolete. I think of Rocketeer as a very early gun "line unit" and always use Catapults for my siege train.

Catapult is substantially weaker (at its "best," attacking a city, it's the same Power as the Ballista), albeit it does much more collateral damage. I'd say it belongs at Ancient Ballistics. The Ballista is also in part a counter unit (+50% vs Catapult) so having it come later seems sensible.

I don't build the Ancient Rocketeer either. Its stats are good, but, as you say, its generally inferior to melee units in the era due to XP. And since siege units can get just as much XP as gunpowder units in that era, if not more, it's substantially inferior to the Ballista that currently becomes available at the same time. Maybe the Ancient Rocketeer should stay at Ancient Ballistics, lose its Siege Weapons Workshop and Iron Working prereqs, and see if it shows up as a useful unit? (Why does it require Iron Working anyway? It doesn't require, y'know, Iron, and I don't think rocket-style firelance were made of iron historically.)

If nothing else, it might be a stealth buff to the AI's war effort, since it doesn't do as good a job as the player of stacking XP. A unit that doesn't get as many promotions but has, in effect, some free promotions (and is hard to counter with promotions at the point it becomes available) would be good for the AI.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Vokarya

Your huge list in post #265 looks good. However I think the Koa should stay as it is in case the culture requirement gets moved. I was thinking of splitting up Polyneisan civ into ...

Polynesian = Polynesian Outrigger
Hawaiian = Koa

Which may or may not move the tech of Boat Fishing so its no longer linked to the Koa.

The rest I think are ok for you to change.

 

[Vokarya]

@Vokarya

Your huge list in post #265 looks good. However I think the Koa should stay as it is in case the culture requirement gets moved. I was thinking of splitting up Polyneisan civ into ...

Polynesian = Polynesian Outrigger
Hawaiian = Koa

Which may or may not move the tech of Boat Fishing so its no longer linked to the Koa.

The rest I think are ok for you to change.

I was just going by what I see in the XML as it currently stands. I don't know what your plans are, so I can't say anything about them. I'll go ahead and clean up everything else; I want to look at the module units to see what needs cleanup.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612 and/or DH

This was I think skipped over. SO suggested that we use the Davy Crockett graphic for the Game Hunter unit so it doesn't share the same graphic as the Hunter. Here is the link to it (which I don't think SO provided)

Davy Crockett
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=8909

However the icon/button of the Game Hunter will have to be moved to the Hunter and the Hunter icon/button to the Game Hunter.

So could one of you chnage the graphics for those 2 units please. Thanks!

 

[ls612]

@ls612 and/or DH

This was I think skipped over. SO suggested that we use the Davy Crockett graphic for the Game Hunter unit so it doesn't share the same graphic as the Hunter. Here is the link to it (which I don't think SO provided)

Davy Crockett
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=8909

However the icon/button of the Game Hunter will have to be moved to the Hunter and the Hunter icon/button to the Game Hunter.

So could one of you chnage the graphics for those 2 units please. Thanks!

So, I added the Davy Crockett art to the Game Hunter and switched the icons for the Hunter and the Game Hunter. Is that what you wanted?

 

[Hydromancerx]

So, I added the Davy Crockett art to the Game Hunter and switched the icons for the Hunter and the Game Hunter. Is that what you wanted?

Yup.

 

[Vokarya]

I was looking at tech prerequisites for units while I was cleaning up redundancies, and I noticed that the Swiss Pikeman unit is a unit suffering from conflicting requirements on its tech prerequisites and its culture tech prerequisites. Swiss Pikeman is supposed to be available at Siege Warfare, but Culture (Swiss) doesn't appear until Mountaineering, which is over halfway through the Medieval Era. In fact, most of the time by the time you get to Mountaineering, you already have Armor Crafting which unlocks the Heavy Pikeman. The Swiss Pikeman upgrades to the Heavy Pikeman, so you will probably never see a Swiss Pikeman. I propose making the Swiss Pikeman a variant of the Heavy Pikeman instead of the Pikeman.

These are the changes that I would apply to the Swiss Pikeman:

• Raise Strength to 9
• Raise Cost to 135
• Change tech prerequisite to Armor Crafting
• Change upgrade to Musketman
• Delete Mountaineering promotion (as it's obsolete with Mountaineering tech)

Secondly, the Phak'ak (Khmer Culture Unit) is a Pikeman variant, but it upgrades to Pikeman, so you will never see a Phak'ak. I think the Phak'ak should upgrade to a Heavy Pikeman instead of a Pikeman.

I can make all of these changes myself. What do you think?

 

[Vokarya]

Another thing that I have noticed is that there are two Culture Units that are Hunter based: the Cree Tracker and the Swazi Tracker. Both of these units only upgrade to units in the Hunter chain, which means that cities without a Master Hunter will have these units on their build list until the end of the game. I think after a certain point, fundamentally obsolete units should not be available any more, so I think we should give these two units a <ForceObsoleteTech> so that they aren't cluttering up the build lists. This are my suggestions:

• Cree Tracker goes obsolete at Feudalism (when the Warden appears)
• Swazi Tracker goes obsolete at Matchlock (when the Game Hunter appears)

I can do Cree Tracker, but Swazi Tracker is one of ls612's units. What do you think of this?

 

[Hydromancerx]

I was looking at tech prerequisites for units while I was cleaning up redundancies, and I noticed that the Swiss Pikeman unit is a unit suffering from conflicting requirements on its tech prerequisites and its culture tech prerequisites. Swiss Pikeman is supposed to be available at Siege Warfare, but Culture (Swiss) doesn't appear until Mountaineering, which is over halfway through the Medieval Era. In fact, most of the time by the time you get to Mountaineering, you already have Armor Crafting which unlocks the Heavy Pikeman. The Swiss Pikeman upgrades to the Heavy Pikeman, so you will probably never see a Swiss Pikeman. I propose making the Swiss Pikeman a variant of the Heavy Pikeman instead of the Pikeman.

These are the changes that I would apply to the Swiss Pikeman:

• Raise Strength to 9
• Raise Cost to 135
• Change tech prerequisite to Armor Crafting
• Change upgrade to Musketman
• Delete Mountaineering promotion (as it's obsolete with Mountaineering tech)

Secondly, the Phak'ak (Khmer Culture Unit) is a Pikeman variant, but it upgrades to Pikeman, so you will never see a Phak'ak. I think the Phak'ak should upgrade to a Heavy Pikeman instead of a Pikeman.

I can make all of these changes myself. What do you think?

Sounds good. Good catch on both of those. I approve those changes.

Also could you give the Swiss Pikeman the Guerrilla III to make up for removing the Mountaineering promotion? Thanks!

Another thing that I have noticed is that there are two Culture Units that are Hunter based: the Cree Tracker and the Swazi Tracker. Both of these units only upgrade to units in the Hunter chain, which means that cities without a Master Hunter will have these units on their build list until the end of the game. I think after a certain point, fundamentally obsolete units should not be available any more, so I think we should give these two units a <ForceObsoleteTech> so that they aren't cluttering up the build lists. This are my suggestions:

• Cree Tracker goes obsolete at Feudalism (when the Warden appears)
• Swazi Tracker goes obsolete at Matchlock (when the Game Hunter appears)

I can do Cree Tracker, but Swazi Tracker is one of ls612's units. What do you think of this?

Sounds good.

 

[Vokarya]

Sounds good. Good catch on both of those. I approve those changes.

Also could you give the Swiss Pikeman the Guerrilla III to make up for removing the Mountaineering promotion? Thanks!

Sounds good.

OK, it's done. I also moved the Ancient Rocketeer, Ballista, and Ballista Elephant to Siege Warfare so their tech requirements matched up with the tech requirement for Siege Weapons Workshop. If you want to change anything back to Ancient Ballistics, we will need to consider dropping the Siege Weapons Workshop requirement.

 

[ls612]

Sounds good. Good catch on both of those. I approve those changes.

Also could you give the Swiss Pikeman the Guerrilla III to make up for removing the Mountaineering promotion? Thanks!



Sounds good.

I changed the Swazi Tracker, Vokarya can do the other one if he wants.

 

[Alex Costa]

Well I have been playing some test games on the Prehistoric Area and I am not sure if this is the right place to post this but I have two questions:

1) Does anyone bother with building the Brute Unit? I don't see really the purpose behind it. I never built any and it obsoletes way early to Clubman that I don't understand really it's point.

2) The Wanderer. Again same thing do people usually use the Wanderer? I don't use it too often either. I usually wait until Trackers at least to begin scouting or sometimes the Clubman.

Just the questions for now. I plan on adding more as I play and perhaps look to help. This mod is really great and I really enjoy it.

Edit: Adding the values. The Brute is if I recall 1 and1 and also has a +25% vs melee units which is pretty much redudent.

Meanwhile the Wanderer has 1 and 2 and a + 100% vs Wild Animals which makes it basically 2 against them. Which raises the question why bother building any of them I suppose the Wanderer can be semi-usable for exploration I guess just need to watch for those animals that can beat it. But I see no use almost whatsoever for the Brute since I usually get the Clubman quickly.