C2C - Units

[Thunderbrd]

I like the thinking DH, but then again, should we not progress the Motorcycle concept itself further? Bubblecycles, Hovercycles, Scout Ships etc? It would also make sense to let the line branch off into the drone-probe-rovers etc...

 

[Yudishtira]

I just noticed in the pedia for the Decareme: under "Background" it says something like "Doesn't exist according to the web".

Well Wikipedia calls them "deceres", but they were never a major line of warships. They were more for showing off: "look how many remes I can put on a ship".

I wouldn't mind if they were replaced by a (non-UU) bireme or quadrireme. I don't think anything needs to change except the name.

Oh, and the pedia background text...

 

[Hydromancerx]

Ha that's funny to homever made the text. Oh and here is some more info.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic-era_warships

Note we currently have the following Hellenistic Era Warships ...

- Trireme
- Decareme (which I guess should be renamed to "deceres")
- Quinqereme
- Siege Quinqereme
- Phoenician Bireme (UU)
- Dromon

EDIT: I wonder perhaps rather than them all being at the same time some should upgrade to each other instead.

Right now it goes ...

Raft -> War Canoe -> War Galley -> Trireme/Quinqereme/Decareme

However perhaps it should go ...

Raft -> War Canoe -> War Galley -> Trireme -> Quinqereme -> Decareme

EDIT2: Ok I tweaked them all a bit and pushed to the SVN.

Now there is a gradual progression of ship improvements until you reach Rudder tech with the Gallaess.

 

[Hydromancerx]

So I was looking at the tree and noticed that infantry units work like this ...

Longbow -> Arquebusier -> Musketman -> Rifleman

and

Heavy Sworsman -> Musketman -> Rifleman

This is fine and I think works nice. However with Calvary units its like this ...

Horse Archer -> Cuirassier -> Carabanier -> Calvary

and

Knight -> Cuirassier -> Carabanier -> Calvary

I am thinking perhaps it should go like this ...

Horse Archer -> Cuirassier -> Carabanier -> Calvary

and

Knight -> Carabanier -> Calvary

This would mean that Knights and Mailed Knights would still be around with the Cuirassier but then go obsolete at Carabanier. In short the Arquebus co-exists with Knights and Swords but the Musket obsoletes them.

What do you guys think?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Ha that's funny to homever made the text. Oh and here is some more info.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic-era_warships

Note we currently have the following Hellenistic Era Warships ...

- Trireme
- Decareme (which I guess should be renamed to "deceres")
- Quinqereme
- Siege Quinqereme
- Phoenician Bireme (UU)
- Dromon

EDIT: I wonder perhaps rather than them all being at the same time some should upgrade to each other instead.

Right now it goes ...

Raft -> War Canoe -> War Galley -> Trireme/Quinqereme/Decareme

However perhaps it should go ...

Raft -> War Canoe -> War Galley -> Trireme -> Quinqereme -> Decareme

EDIT2: Ok I tweaked them all a bit and pushed to the SVN.

Now there is a gradual progression of ship improvements until you reach Rudder tech with the Gallaess.

Should there not then be a Siege Decareme? I dunno... I've not researched much about these ship types.

 

[Yudishtira]

The Decareme was a specialty (more like a novelty) ship which the game could well do without. The quadrireme (four 'remes' whatever they are) and the hexa- to nona- (six to nine) -remes are not represented in the game at all.

The way we had it, the Trireme/Quinquereme/Decareme were almost like the same ship with different FFH-style crews. The article that Hydro quotes makes it sound like the quinquereme was a definite improvement on the trireme, and came some time later.

If you take away the three-way Tri/Quin/Dec decision as it was, don't forget that we are losing at least some of the free promotions that they each had. I agree it has to be done (that is unless you implement FFH crews which would be cool), but there will be balance implications.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Sorry but what's FFH stand for? Fall from Heaven?

 

[Yudishtira]

Sorry but what's FFH stand for? Fall from Heaven?

Yes

I read up some more.

From the early 4th century AD, until the 9th, it seems everyone - even the Romans - went back to plain old galleys. When naval supremacy was not seriously contested, triremes etc. were not worth building and crewing.

Here is an attempt at a timeline FYI:

Galley/War Galley (I have not attempted to differentiate the two): first appearance 12th century BC; dominant 11th. cent. to 8th. cent
Bireme (originated by the Phoenicians but soon copied): first predominate 8th century BC; superseded by the trireme but took back over from them from 31BC till around 300AD
Trireme: 6th century BC till Actium in 31BC, then revived by Constantine for the first half of the 4th century AD
Quinquereme: 4th century BC till Actium

Dromon: the name was first used in 5th cent. AD, but these were basically just galleys. The Dromon as we have it in the game came along around 800.

Cog: appeared 10th. century; widely used from 12th

Galleass, Carrack, Caravel: 15th century!

Notice that galleys are the weapon of choice in the Mediterranean until 800. And of course Viking longships were extremely basic galleys, and continued to perform feats of infamy well into the next millennium (including ocean crossings without optics ).

 

[Hydromancerx]

Notice that galleys are the weapon of choice in the Mediterranean until 800. And of course Viking longships were extremely basic galleys, and continued to perform feats of infamy well into the next millennium (including ocean crossings without optics ).

That's because their cultural borders allowed them to sail on ocean tiles.

 

[Yudishtira]

That's because their cultural borders allowed them to sail on ocean tiles.

The definition of a decent world map is that Iceland's culture will never reach Greenland. So Erik and Leif are lucky indeed...that they weren't playing on one!

Otherwise they could always have bought a Catamaran...

 

[Thunderbrd]

that is unless you implement FFH crews which would be cool

Doable through the equipment mechanism In fact, the re-equiping method for all units is loosely inspired from the way this works in FFH2.

 

[strategyonly]

Doable through the equipment mechanism In fact, the re-equiping method for all units is loosely inspired from the way this works in FFH2.

Talking which, how close are you'll on the equipment stuff, close, far away etc??

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

And of course Viking longships were extremely basic galleys, and continued to perform feats of infamy well into the next millennium (including ocean crossings without optics ).

Where they were there is a wind that blows from the west and a current that flows east a few miles north/south of each other. (or the other way round, I haven't had my coffee this morning). They basically had had a highway from Norway through the Shetland/Orkney Islands then to the Faroe Islands and on to Iceland. Not so plain sailing to Greenland but once there it is not so hard to get to Newfoundland/Vinland.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Talking which, how close are you'll on the equipment stuff, close, far away etc??

The Combat Class developments are a direct movement towards that goal. Takes us MUCH closer to equipment being implemented once that's finished. This is not a small project here

 

[Faustmouse]

Two things on Units:

1) The AI has a very strange evaluation system for determining the value of units when trading. They offer me 20.000 for a good promoted, Modern Worker.
But when I offer my Very Heavy Tanks with OVER 200 XP (!), they only offer me 2.000 , eventhough their best unit is Cavalry.

2) Why does ships have so much movement? What does it represent? Destroyer have easily 10+ Movement, while the Humvee only has 3? I don't think a Ship is faster than a car, nor that a ship has more movement range.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

2) Why does ships have so much movement? What does it represent? Destroyer have easily 10+ Movement, while the Humvee only has 3? I don't think a Ship is faster than a car, nor that a ship has more movement range.

When testing ship movements against the real world it was discovered that to be realistic they would need to be increased 10-100 times, since in real life a sailing ship can go around the world in a year whereas in the game it would take 3 turns or 6 years just to cross the Atlantic.

People used to complain that horse units should stop when ever they entered forest because it hurts to ride a horse fast in woods. They forget that at that stage one turn meant 3 generations of horse,

 

[Thunderbrd]

So my wife's current game has made the following observations apparent:

1. I NEED to get Pursuit in play pronto. At the moment, things are rather imbalanced without it.
   
   
2. I'm going to have to make it impossible for a unit to defensively withdraw if it's defending one of its own cities.
   
   
3. Warlords need to not be hidden nationality - this is just... I have no idea what the justification for a bold leader to have a hidden nationality would be. If ANY unit would NOT be hidden nationality, it would seem to be these.
   
   
4. Warlord units need to be MUCH more expensive to build. And perhaps their cost should be higher than 1 per round.
   
   
5. Warlord units need to be given the unlimited exception tag, making them limited even if Unlimited National units is in play.

Any feedback or do I have agreement from all here?

 

[Faustmouse]

agree on all, esepcially that warlords should have NO hidden nationality!

 

[Hydromancerx]

I was always confused. Were warlords suppose to be like criminal/bad units, while say Field Generals national/good units? Seems like they were like the same thing. And then Heros too... so confusing.

 

[Yudishtira]

I see Warlords as like land-privateers. When you want to harass someone who you're not declaring war on, they are the strongest units for the job.

If you take away their HN, I presume that will mean they can't attack someone you're not at war with. That makes them rather dull 'generic hero' units. HN is all that makes them special - it is their raison d'etre. What reason do they have to exist without it?