C2C - Units

[Yudishtira]

Have always skipped Chariots, am I missing out?

If there's one with less than a 75% bonus against melee, I can't find it. So yeah, you are.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The Hittite Chariot is strength 4 and requires Bronze Working which also unlocks the real str 6 Chariot. The UU should obviously be at least str 6, but even then I'm not sure it has any advantage over the generic unit.

It's probable that the Chariot was adjusted after the Hittite Chariot was made and left the Hittite version unadjusted. I kinda remember when this would've happened. Perhaps the Hittite Chariot should be much stronger, like 7.

 

[Yudishtira]

It's probable that the Chariot was adjusted after the Hittite Chariot was made and left the Hittite version unadjusted. I kinda remember when this would've happened. Perhaps the Hittite Chariot should be much stronger, like 7.

I did a quick compare and the UU (once it has been corrected to str 6 of course) has some advantages over the generic unit. Strength 7 is the Egyptian War Chariot's gimmick...

 

[Sparth]

I did a quick compare and the UU (once it has been corrected to str 6 of course) has some advantages over the generic unit. Strength 7 is the Egyptian War Chariot's gimmick...

Hittite Chariot is ultra cheap (25 ) compared to normal Chariot or Egyptian War Chariot (60 ).
Hittite Chariot and normal Chariot got 6 and Egyptian War Chariot - 7

Archer Chariot which need Archery instead Bronze Working costs 50 and Early Chariot need 30 to build. Both got 4

Zebra Chariot is just Zebra version of Early Chariot

There is also Shang Chariot which is faster version of Normal Chariot (starting with Mobility promotion)

For comparision: first non-chariot horse unit: Horseman which can be build even faster then Early Chariot costs 42 and got 6

 

[Yudishtira]

Hittite Chariot is ultra cheap (25 ) compared to normal Chariot or Egyptian War Chariot (60 ).
Hittite Chariot and normal Chariot got 6 and Egyptian War Chariot - 7

Are you saying the Hittite Chariot has been fixed already? On SVN 8653 it is strength 4. If it is still going to come at Bronze Working, it should be str 6, ie. being cheap is not enough of a bonus, especially for a limited unit.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@Yudishtira,

You are correct it is still a Str 4 unit. 100% vs Melee, +10% Pursuit (whatever that means), 25% withdrawal, and a 10% Early withdrawal (again whatever that means). Cost is 25.

In comparison Egyptian War Chariot is str 7, 100% Melee, +25 % Pursuit, +25% Withdrawal, +5% early withdrawal, and Cost is 60.

If no one has any objection I can up Hittite to str 6 and commit to SVN.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

Go for it Joe.

I'll eventually review all these units. I'm working on Law Enforcement, Disease Control, Strike Teams, Criminals and Ruffian units at the moment.

 

[Sparth]

Yea I was blind or something. Its 4 strenght.
6 will be ok.
And I think 5 should be for Archer Chariot and 4 or 5 for Horseman.

 

[Yudishtira]

Yea I was blind or something. Its 4 strenght.
6 will be ok.
And I think 5 should be for Archer Chariot and 4 or 5 for Horseman.

Chariot Archer should have some bonus over Early Chariot I agree. On the other hand, it generally becomes available at the same tech iirc (ie. since you already have Archery when you get Chariotry), so maybe making it stronger will render the Early Chariot completely redundant.

My Chariot Archers don't have Ranged Assault. If it's not just me, maybe they could be given some, and differentiated from Early Chariot that way.

Why do you think the Horseman should be weaker? Because it's the same strength as the Chariot and comes so much earlier? I think it's fine - the Chariot has hefty bonus vs. melee doesn't it?

 

[Yudishtira]

If no one has any objection I can up Hittite to str 6 and commit to SVN.

JosEPh

No objection here!

 

[JosEPh_II]

Done

JosEPh

 

[Taxman66]

Why do you think the Horseman should be weaker? Because it's the same strength as the Chariot and comes so much earlier? I think it's fine - the Chariot has hefty bonus vs. melee doesn't it?

Because it completely outclasses everything, including early chariots, for a huge time frame. There is also absolutley zero evidence of horses being ridden in combat (or at least in large enough groups to justify a 'unit') until well after chariots. Actually when mounted fighters did show up they very rappidly replaced chariots.

 

[Yudishtira]

Because it completely outclasses everything, including early chariots, for a huge time frame. There is also absolutley zero evidence of horses being ridden in combat (or at least in large enough groups to justify a 'unit') until well after chariots. Actually when mounted fighters did show up they very rappidly replaced chariots.

I have no opinion in the chicken-or-egg debate between chariots and horsemen, except that it's been done to death.

'Outclasses everything' is at the nonsensical end of the exaggeration spectrum, elephant riders (base +50% vs. mounted) being the obvious counterexample. The other point being that all chariots as far as I can see have base +75% vs. melee (some I think have more), thus starting stronger than horsemen against this very common class of units.

For those without elephants (or mammoths or horses or bison/bears/deer), Horsemen themselves are countered by spearmen at Copper Working ie. early ancient iirc.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@Taxman,
I have to agree with Yudishtira on this one.

Even stone or obsidian Spear can be a good mounted deterrent. Spear impo was much better before all the promotion changes where all Spear had an innate 20% bonus vs Mounted. If that bonus is still there, it doesn't show any more, perhaps Spear could have their Mounted bonus upped 5% or so (if it still exists). If it's been removed it could be added back.

JosEPh

 

[Sparth]

'Outclasses everything' is at the nonsensical end of the exaggeration spectrum, elephant riders (base +50% vs. mounted) being the obvious counterexample. The other point being that all chariots as far as I can see have base +75% vs. melee (some I think have more), thus starting stronger than horsemen against this very common class of units.

I just say that on this stage of play (late prehistoric) 6 str. unit is a real bargain.
6 str. plus nice bonuses vs Archers units.

Lets compare to early chariot which you can build a lot later:
Horseman
6 vs all units,
7,5 vs Throwing,
7,5 vs Archers,
7,5 vs Siege Engines,
0-1 First Strikes,
Immune to First Strike,
15% Widthrawn Chance,
-25% to attack in the Jungle, Swamp and in the Forest,
+25% to attack on the Plains, Grasslands and in the Desert terrain,
Flank Attack vs Catapaluts and Trebuchets,
Starting with Commando Promotion

Early Chariot
4 vs all units,
7 vs Melee,
5 vs Throwing,
12% Widthrawn Chance,
-50% to attack in the Jungle, Swamp and in the Forest.

My solution:
- Horseman 4 with cost 30 without Commando Promotion
- Early Chariot 5 with cost 42
- Archer Chariot 5 with cost 50

 

[Taxman66]

I won't go down the 'they shouldn't exist' path, even though I still believe it.

In addition to Sparth's analysis, Horseman at this stage can easily get more free promotions (e.g. speed) and just as much starting xp as melee units. They can beat up stone spearmen (or at least AI stone spearmen) without much fear (unless fighting into +75% terrain), and if you happen to have Tengrii they can be nigh unstoppable.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I can't count the number of times this age old Civ IV BtS battle over horsemen has been waged since I started using RoM back in early 2007 before I joined the forum. From Rom to AND and now 3 times or more here in C2C alone.

The answer isn't to make horsemen str 4. Making the early chariots start at str 5 would up their usage as they are just too weak at str 4. But the main counter to Horsemen was always Spear. Fix Spear 1st. Give it back it's innate Promotion vs Mounted. And Stop stripping the early units of each category of their original BtS promotions.

Right now Axe is in the worst shape it's been for some time. The str 5 Bronze or Iron axeman is a pale shadow of it's former glory.

Spear is a close 2nd to Axe and the early chariot next. And impo there is no need for the Early Chariot and the Early Archer chariot. Only the Archer should be used unless their promos are greatly changed. With Early Chariot getting it's old Melee bonus back.

But reducing Horsemen to str 4 is not good at all. We've done it before like I said and it never stays because it doesn't work well.

JosEPh

 

[Yudishtira]

Horseman
6 vs all units,
7,5 vs Throwing,
7,5 vs Archers,
7,5 vs Siege Engines,
0-1 First Strikes,
Immune to First Strike,
15% Widthrawn Chance,
-25% to attack in the Jungle, Swamp and in the Forest,
+25% to attack on the Plains, Grasslands and in the Desert terrain,
Flank Attack vs Catapaluts and Trebuchets,
Starting with Commando Promotion

I will only agree that those bonuses against throwing, archers and siege could come down - maybe as far as only 10%. I will also agree, indeed I have always argued against the automatic Commando promo, although if it is taken away, it must be made available for early mounted units to take.

Don't forget all the other mounted units you are throwing out with your strength 4. Camel and Deer riders are the first that spring to mind, but you would have made elephants into monsters (10.5 vs. 4), so just about every mounted unit prior to knights, and maybe beyond, would have to be reconsidered.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I agree with Joe's statements on mounted units.

However, spears still have a bonus vs mounted. And axes still have a bonus vs melee.
Wood Spearman:

			<UnitCombatMods>
				<UnitCombatMod>
					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MOUNTED</UnitCombatType>
					<iUnitCombatMod>25</iUnitCombatMod>
				</UnitCombatMod>
			</UnitCombatMods>

Note that Wood Spearman units have an unusual bonus against animals that I have come to think all spears should inherit along the way as well.
Stone Spearman/Obsidian Spearman and beyond:

			<UnitCombatMods>
				<UnitCombatMod>
					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MOUNTED</UnitCombatType>
					<iUnitCombatMod>50</iUnitCombatMod>
				</UnitCombatMod>
			</UnitCombatMods>

Axeman units:

			<UnitCombatMods>
				<UnitCombatMod>
					<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MELEE</UnitCombatType>
					<iUnitCombatMod>50</iUnitCombatMod>
				</UnitCombatMod>
			</UnitCombatMods>

It's there. As I stated a while ago, it takes holding down CTRL or Shift when moving to hover over the unit to get the combat modifiers page of the help hover.

Totally agree that Early Chariots should be upped. In fact, looking at it clearly, I believe that they should be increased to strength 6 to match the horsemen while bringing in a lot of anti-melee with the upgrade. Then the later chariots should perhaps be at least str 7 or 8.

Again, all this would be easier done once fully charted out. All units need to be tech charted eventually so that we can clearly compare progressions in terms of all their strengths and weaknesses. I may be able to start looking at more basic land units like these in the next cycle more closely.

 

[Sparth]

Again, all this would be easier done once fully charted out. All units need to be tech charted eventually so that we can clearly compare progressions in terms of all their strengths and weaknesses. I may be able to start looking at more basic land units like these in the next cycle more closely.

I can take this as my next bigger project. Ill create google sheet with all units.