C2C - Units

[Alex Costa]

Good idea on carrying it through the club line I think. I'm also going to repeat a request for clubs to branch out into bone swordsmen and the pure city attack could carry into that line and strengthen a bit to make it more worthwhile than a stone maceman unit when attacking a city with non-melee defenders.

Alright I have an idea for the Bone Swordsman. Just what is the format for posting units?

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Alex Costa

Like this ...

-----

Name
Graphic: (Provide Link or Attachment)
Icon: (Provide Link or Attachment)
Type: (Such as Mounted, Archer, Melee, etc)
Strength: (How Strong it is)
Movement: (How fast it can move in one turn)
Cost: (How much its base cost is)
Req Tech: (What technologies it requires)
Req Resource: (What resources it requires)
Req Building: (What buildings it requires)
Upgrades From: (What Units Upgrade to it)
Upgrades To: (What units it upgrades to)

Special Abilities

• (Basiclly All the rest of the Stuff such as if it is Tradable, Cost Gold, Good vs a Unit, Comes with a Promotion, etc).
• .
• .

Notes: (Any other notes and possibly what existing unit you can use as a base.)

-----

If you don't know one of the fields just put a "?".

Hope this helps you.

 

[Alex Costa]

Name:Bone Swordsman
Graphic: Same as below
Icon: We may need to make one from scratch
Type: Melee
Strength: 3 so as to match units from this ear
Movement: 1
Cost: 25
Req Tech: Bone Working
Req Resource: Bones
Req Building: Only the ones to get bones
Upgrades From: Clubman
Upgrades To: Stone Sword (?) could be a new unit

Special Abilities

• 
  + 10% City Attack

• 
  Builds 15% faster with Bones

 

[ls612]

Name:Bone Swordsman
Graphic: Same as below
Icon: We may need to make one from scratch
Type: Melee
Strength: 3 so as to match units from this ear
Movement: 1
Cost: 25
Req Tech: Bone Working
Req Resource: Bones
Req Building: Only the ones to get bones
Upgrades From: Clubman
Upgrades To: Stone Sword (?) could be a new unit

Special Abilities

• 
  + 10% City Attack

• 
  Builds 15% faster with Bones

We've talked about adding new units in the very early game. The thing about that is that before the mid-Ancient there isn't really a lot of warfare, and so adding more units before then can become superfluous. I did however last redo the Early Units in May, so it may be time to revisit that. I'm just saying I'm skeptical about more military options in that not too militaristic part of the game.

 

[Alex Costa]

In fact I just imagined a whole new line here


Name: Stone Swordsman
Graphic: ?
Icon: ?
Type: Melee
Strength: 3
Movement: 1
Cost: 35
Req Tech: Maybe a new tech called Sword Making
Req Resource: None
Req Building: None
Upgrades From: Bone Swordsman
Upgrades To: Swordsman

Special Abilities

.+15% City Attack
.Builds 15% faster with Obsidian

• Builds 15% faster with Stone
• Builds 15% faster with flint

 

[Alex Costa]

We've talked about adding new units in the very early game. The thing about that is that before the mid-Ancient there isn't really a lot of warfare, and so adding more units before then can become superfluous. I did however last redo the Early Units in May, so it may be time to revisit that. I'm just saying I'm skeptical about more military options in that not too militaristic part of the game.

Maybe I just think that we could use a line that get bonus to city attack? Or is that too redundant?

 

[ls612]

Maybe I just think that we could use a line that get bonus to city attack? Or is that too redundant?

Too OP at that stage. The whole point of the Tribal Guardian was to make it so that you couldn't take people's first city for a long while, that way all of the AI civs would survive to maturity.

 

[Alex Costa]

Too OP at that stage. The whole point of the Tribal Guardian was to make it so that you couldn't take people's first city for a long while, that way all of the AI civs would survive to maturity.

Well I kinda of manage to conquer the Tupi in Prehistoric Age with the use of Stone Macemans and Impis (yes got the lucky Zulu culture) promoted with Ilkhanda plus the Mascot. Mind you it was without start as minor civs so that probably makes a difference.

Edit: Some of them had city raider though. Perhaps the problem is there?

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Alex Costa

You can see my ideas here.

I basically had an Obsidian Swordsman, Obsidian Spearman, Obsidian Maceman and Obsidian Axeman at Obsidian Weapons tech.

I felt that aside from the Atl-Atl that there were not too many units in between the Stone Axe/Mace/Spearmen and the Copper/Bronze Axe/Mace/Spearmen

I do like the Bone Swordsman idea however I do not think that's historically accurate.

 

[Alex Costa]

@Alex Costa

You can see my ideas here.

I basically had an Obsidian Swordsman, Obsidian Spearman, Obsidian Maceman and Obsidian Axeman at Obsidian Weapons tech.

I felt that aside from the Atl-Atl that there were not too many units in between the Stone Axe/Mace/Spearmen and the Copper/Bronze Axe/Mace/Spearmen

I do like the Bone Swordsman idea however I do not think that's historically accurate.

Well it isn't so perhaps just have a Wood Swordsman or something?

The Obsidian units really could be included. But then again LS said the Prehistoric age is more about Hunting than warfare and conquest. But I look at Scraping tech and it has nothing. I don't know about any of you but I feel we could probably put another unit in that tech. It talks about sharpening edges. So it seems to be a good place to put a sword unit.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well if you look at the tree the Obsidian Weapons tech is after Warfare tech. This is very late Prehistoric and could arguably be the tech level many cultures stayed at or at least were around at before the discovery of Metal Weapons.

 

[Alex Costa]

Well if you look at the tree the Obsidian Weapons tech is after Warfare tech. This is very late Prehistoric and could arguably be the tech level many cultures stayed at or at least were around at before the discovery of Metal Weapons.

Indeed weren't the Mayans and Incans famous for using Obsidian weapons in combat? However having four units unlocked at the same tech is perhaps too much Hydro. We could probably look at splitting Obsidian Weapons?

 

[Hydromancerx]

Yes the Jauar Warrior (Aztec UU) is there and uses the Macuahuitl (aka Obsidian Sword). My point would be to have a unit between the Stone units and the Copper/Bronze units. Such as ...

Wooden Spearman -> Stone Spearman -> Obsidian Sparman -> Spearman -> Pikeman -> Heavy Pikeman

At least some unit that can at least hold its ground with the Atl-Atl at that time period. Because at that time unless you have a special culture unit like the Jaguar Warrior there is nothing that can compete with an Atl-Atl until you get to Archery or Copper Working.

 

[Alex Costa]

Yes the Jauar Warrior (Aztec UU) is there and uses the Macuahuitl (aka Obsidian Sword). My point would be to have a unit between the Stone units and the Copper/Bronze units. Such as ...

Wooden Spearman -> Stone Spearman -> Obsidian Sparman -> Spearman -> Pikeman -> Heavy Pikeman

At least some unit that can at least hold its ground with the Atl-Atl at that time period. Because at that time unless you have a special culture unit like the Jaguar Warrior there is nothing that can compete with an Atl-Atl until you get to Archery or Copper Working.

Still I think putting four units to be unlocked all in the same tech is too much. The Atl-Atl could defenatly use an opponent in that period.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The idea of a bone sword certainly stretches the concept of sword. But surely there were some efforts to make a more dynamic handheld weapon with a sharpened edge or a row of teeth that eventually evolved into what we see today as being a sword and that weapon would've been a faster and more weildy weapon than say, a club or an axe, albeit not as brutely destructive and perhaps a bit brittle.

Maybe a bone shardsman might make for a better prehistorically named precursor to the swordsman.

And I disagree that this era doesn't have much combat... I guess it depends on your gamespeed. But usually I find I'm building an army of stone axes and macemen and getting frustrated that the sword line has been overlooked here because THOSE are the ones I want to start getting some XP for! This beginning army I use to make sure my nearby lands are cleared of barbarian cities.

Furthermore, the idea of the tribal guardian shouldn't make inter-civ conflicts impossible but make it tough to impossible for an ai to fall to a couple of random barbarians (which is the problem we were having before we introduced the TG unit.) Some of the most fun games are the ones where you go all out super aggressive from immediately out the gate and its a shame the TG makes that next to impossible to succeed at.

 

[Alex Costa]

The idea of a bone sword certainly stretches the concept of sword. But surely there were some efforts to make a more dynamic handheld weapon with a sharpened edge or a row of teeth that eventually evolved into what we see today as being a sword and that weapon would've been a faster and more weildy weapon than say, a club or an axe, albeit not as brutely destructive and perhaps a bit brittle.

Maybe a bone shardsman might make for a better prehistorically named precursor to the swordsman.

And I disagree that this era doesn't have much combat... I guess it depends on your gamespeed. But usually I find I'm building an army of stone axes and macemen and getting frustrated that the sword line has been overlooked here because THOSE are the ones I want to start getting some XP for! This beginning army I use to make sure my nearby lands are cleared of barbarian cities.

Furthermore, the idea of the tribal guardian shouldn't make inter-civ conflicts impossible but make it tough to impossible for an ai to fall to a couple of random barbarians (which is the problem we were having before we introduced the TG unit.) Some of the most fun games are the ones where you go all out super aggressive from immediately out the gate and its a shame the TG makes that next to impossible to succeed at.

I know I can attest to this personally after all if you start with a civ that leads itself to combat and if you find a Civ close by you really wanna take them down. I was lucky in my Congo game I had two AI Civs right next to each other it allowed me to take two capitals.

 

[Yudishtira]

I wouldn't argue with a stone sword, but I think a bone sword is frankly just a bit silly. There's a reason swords require iron in the standard game. A bone sword would be about as much use in battle as a toothpick - which is about all you'd have left the first time you hit anything.

 

[ls612]

I wouldn't argue with a stone sword, but I think a bone sword is frankly just a bit silly. There's a reason swords require iron in the standard game. A bone sword would be about as much use in battle as a toothpick - which is about all you'd have left the first time you hit anything.

I agree. The Swordsman should remain a Classical era innovation for your military. Remember throughout the game you are getting new units to use that aren't direct upgrades over something else, I don't see why we need to extend the swordsman back farther.

 

[Alex Costa]

Speaking of the redundancies I have been detailing for buildings I found three for units. The Sacred Band, Moran and Huaminca National Units requiring Hunting is a redundancy. The first should be outright moved to Bronze Working since Copper Working is also redundant since you need Bronze Working for Carthage culture. Moran should just drop the Hunting requirement since it leads to both Folk Dance and Copper Working. The Huaminca should also drop the Hunting requirement (or be even moved if Incan culture is moved)

 

[Alex Costa]

Another redudancy founder. The Carib Blowgunner appears at Poison Crafting yet the Carib Culture only appears at Boat Building. Despite not having anything to do since Carib appears at Boat Building the Carib Blowgunner ought to appear there.