C2C - Units

[Crusis]

Thunderbrd, I wanted to let you know I figured out why my archers became berserkers on me. I had accidentally turned "Stack Attack" on, and boy, is that buggy.

Odd that it would turn one unit into a super stack, though. But once I turned it off my game has been proceeding according to my nefarious plans.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yeah, I've probably made a righteous mess of stack attack trying to fix it of other bugs... sorry about that. I'll have to profile what's happening there to fix it at some point but honestly trying to keep it updated to the rest of the combat changes is really tough, particularly without screwing it up somehow (which it was bugged when I got here too anyhow - just maybe not THIS way...)

I'll start trying to fix it up as a late project once everything else has simmered down and the new combat rulesets are more fixed in place.

 

[Nimek]

Can we tweak hunters and explorers line

Please give them -50% vs combatants.

It is pain in the ass that you cant kill hunter by any unit when it is well promoted and stay on hiil/forest.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Agreed. Remind me of that though once I've got the ability to modify all units of a given combat class with tags on the combat classes themselves. That should be very soon but I might forget about that particular implementation. Still... very much agree!

 

[Zincat]

There is actually a rather long period near the end of the medieval age when you can't kill explorers, period. Unless you use some hero unit. The base 8 strength, + the bonuses they have, make them immortal. I usually just ignore them since they can't attack anything, but they still end up waking all my units when they pass by, and I keep getting the enemy spotted message in the logs.

But really, why would I lose 1-3 combat units to kill something that cannot attack? please, just make them weak against military units.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

There is actually a rather long period near the end of the medieval age when you can't kill explorers, period. Unless you use some hero unit. The base 8 strength, + the bonuses they have, make them immortal. I usually just ignore them since they can't attack anything, but they still end up waking all my units when they pass by, and I keep getting the enemy spotted message in the logs.

But really, why would I lose 1-3 combat units to kill something that cannot attack? please, just make them weak against military units.

Interesting, I find that almost everything can kill explorers which is why I don't use them.

 

[Zincat]

Interesting, I find that almost everything can kill explorers which is why I don't use them.

How is that possible?
An explorer has a strength 8. The ai loves to load it up with terrain promotions like woodsman, guerrilla, tundra and such. And keeps them IN those terrains. When trying to attack them, you almost always see defense values of +100%, sometimes +125% or more. Let's say +100%

Your staple military unit is the light swordman (only the swordman is better as base strength, but it's truly at the end of that period). The light swordman has 7 base strength, but the only promotions that work against the explorer are the ones that raise strength, like Combat. Let's even say you give it Combat V, which nets you +75% strength. And cavalry units do not fare better, once again only straight strength promotions work against the explorer.

So, even with such a good light swordman (Combat V means it's NOT a rookie unit), you have strength 8 +100% against strength 7 + 75%. The chances are clearly against the swordman.

Unless you play in a very flat map with no forests/hills/tundra/jungle? Then perhaps I could understand it, but a base strength 8 unit loaded with promotions for the terrains he's usually in is very hard to kill without casualties. The chances are against you. In fact most of my light swordmen shows chances around 5%-20% when trying to attack the evil, indestructible explorers.

Kinda makes no sense at all....

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Mine are always killed whenever they explore - usually by the ambusher line which is supposed to be weaker than normal combat units.

 

[strategyonly]

the ambusher line which is supposed to be weaker than normal combat units.

Yeah when promoted correctly they are nice units like Assassins also.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Yeah when promoted correctly they are nice units like Assassins also.

I feel that any attack on a foreign unit within cultural borders of any nation by anyone's hidden nationality unit should increase the attacked unit's nation's unhappiness with the nation owning the plot. "You have failed to police your lands." or some such.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I feel that any attack on a foreign unit within cultural borders of any nation by anyone's hidden nationality unit should increase the attacked unit's nation's unhappiness with the nation owning the plot. "You have failed to police your lands." or some such.

We can have that add an impact to morale once the morale structure is setup.

As for the explorer power issue, I have solutions to both being too powerful and too weak. I understand both sides of that issue and the problem is we're looking at the strength as the main solution.

 

[Zincat]

Regarding the explorer, sorry if I ask again, but you made me curious. How would you build an assassin (Not an ambusher which seems quite impossible to me) in order to reliably kill an explorer?

Consider the explorer of strength 8, and +100% defense bonus.
The assassin has strength 8.
what promotions would you give it? Let's say a level 6 assassin. Aiming to have more than 50% chances of killing the explorer. Because I just can't see how it's done. Unless you try to a first strike heavy build? I don't know, enlighten me

Apart from that, a better solution for the explorer rather than strength 8 would be either to make it stealthy like ambushers (normal units can't see it, just beware of dogs and similar), or to lower its strength but increase its movement (move, look, fall back)

And no, I don't use explorers either, because they'd be unbalanced silly if I did (woodsman 3 + guerrilla 3 + a hill/forest tile is defense... +175%? The perfect bait-kill machine)

 

[strategyonly]

Regarding the explorer, sorry if I ask again, but you made me curious. How would you build an assassin (Not an ambusher which seems quite impossible to me) in order to reliably kill an explorer?

Consider the explorer of strength 8, and +100% defense bonus.
The assassin has strength 8.
what promotions would you give it? Let's say a level 6 assassin. Aiming to have more than 50% chances of killing the explorer. Because I just can't see how it's done. Unless you try to a first strike heavy build? I don't know, enlighten me

Apart from that, a better solution for the explorer rather than strength 8 would be either to make it stealthy like ambushers (normal units can't see it, just beware of dogs and similar), or to lower its strength but increase its movement (move, look, fall back)

And no, I don't use explorers either, because they'd be unbalanced silly if I did (woodsman 3 + guerrilla 3 + a hill/forest tile is defense... +175%? The perfect bait-kill machine)

If you want an Assassin str 8 to become the killer of the century start off by promoting him with ALL the "shocks", "morale", "leadership", then get as high as you can in the "combat class" then get the plains/forest/hills as high as you can, after that you should be able to KILL a unit that has strength 21-26ish.

 

[edingess]

I think that the requirements for the AA for the modern era. The SAM trooper should be unlocked at Modern Warfare and Mobile SAM should be unlocked at Guided Weapons

 

[Yudishtira]

Can we have a Bandit Archer unit please? Don't you think it's a good idea?

 

[Hydromancerx]

That is a good idea.

 

[strategyonly]

Whom ever is going to take over the units XMLing i need them to contact me, or Hydro you can and i can inform you want i need them to do, its "kinda" simple stuff, but tedious.

Same goes for buildings person also.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Whom ever is going to take over the units XMLing i need them to contact me, or Hydro you can and i can inform you want i need them to do, its "kinda" simple stuff, but tedious.

Same goes for buildings person also.

I'll be going through units with some regularity over the next few months so you might as well PM me on that and if I get some help with my projects I can work your changes in as well. (Not buildings generally though.)

 

[Hydromancerx]

Whom ever is going to take over the units XMLing i need them to contact me, or Hydro you can and i can inform you want i need them to do, its "kinda" simple stuff, but tedious.

Same goes for buildings person also.

Yeah new units will go through the same process as the new buildings have been. And will be posted in the thread below ...

ls612's C2C Units
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=452518

 

[Faustmouse]

In RoM they had Blue Helmet Troops. Troops with hidden nationality that could only defend and enter cities. If the enemy attacked the city then they would defend the city. (Not sure what happened if you ally entered it's own city, but I think then they did not defend.)

Why aren't those in C2C?