C2C - Wonder Civs

[EldrinFal]

I like the idea of a more generic starting culture/civ. Even better if it can evolve over time according to what major culture has developed or dominates your civ.

Perhaps something like each time you enter a new era, your civ's major culture is evaluated and your motif changes to that. So leaderhead might change, city style, etc. Not sure if that is possible, but seems in tune with what you are suggesting Hydro.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'm thinking we should completely genericalize the initial selection of civilization. Name them generically, player 1,2,3 etc... Then we need to adopt a civilization like adopting a religion. We can change what civilization we adopt based on those we have developed access to along evolutionary lines.

Leaderheads are another matter entirely of course... Perhaps we should look at the above before moving into considering that aspect of things. For now, just allow the players to be fully defined by their selected leaderhead, whomever that may be and let the civilization be a development in progress.

I'm somewhat against the idea of making the tech tree react to the civilization, but I do like making the options of what civilization to enact based on current civilization and tech level.

In fact, that's how it could go entirely. Select a tech for each age and make that a hinge point where, once earned, the nation must choose what civilization to adopt, each one being a branch off the previous selection.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Thunderbrd

I am not sure if they should be that generic. Honestly I would not mind if they were based on their team color. Such as Red Civ vs Blue Civ, etc. If we have them so generic then we need to have some way that culture can develop since art styles do matter for how your civ looks. If there was some dynamic way for a civ to change its art style during the game that would be great. We could start everyone on some primitive default one and as your reach cultural identity then the art style would change such as greko-roman or meso-american.

The other problem I see is how will AI determine what civ they are at default with? Do we just apply existing a leaderheads to random colors? Alternatively we may want to just made all leaderheads generic and have them based on their traits. Such as making 1 leader head for each combination of traits. Thus the leader would be less about a real person and more about the traits to choose from. For example ...

Red Empire = Red Leader (Aggressive / Expansive)

Might even be interesting if we could somehow give randomly generated leader names.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'm liking all that thinking so far Hydro! I like the idea of colors indicating the blend of various leader traits too.

So let's be clear. A lot of this would need some serious dll work. And you've mentioned some of the things that would be necessary to address. Andy and Koshling are very good with programming and could likely understand the current coding to the point to pull it off (motivating them to do so may be hurdle to overcome ). Much of it goes into territory that requires an understanding of programming I just don't currently possess nor do I have much time to work with for developing the knowledge. But if we carefully lay out a plan, identifying what we want the end result to be and all the considerations as to what elements in the game will be impacted for a culture/leader revamp, I think we can make this happen.

For example... I had not considered the artstyle issue... but that could be defined by the culture selected and applied to the units pretty much as per normal - it just wouldn't be static so it'd have to be programmed to look for the right references where it doesn't need to normally make checks right now. Not really too tough I don't think.

How to 'name' the civilization on the civ list (bottom right on the mainscreen) is something that's gotten pretty complex thanks to the bug options and I haven't deigned to even try to sort all that out but it'd have to be understood fully to adopt such a dynamic civilization system.

I've often considered the random naming and personality features for leaderheads, as well as the previously discussed growing leader traits as global culture improves civilization wide.


For now, within the span of the growth of the next version or so, the concept of having every civ have a world wonder starter that gives one cultural resource of that particular culture, then having a minor building for each town that adopts the culture (buildable if there is access to the resource) then a resource spreader building that can be built once for every 3-5 of the minor buildings built in your empire that gives you another civilization resource to trade off (mirroring the Holy City Shrine/Temples/Cathedrals of religions) seems to me to be the best way to work a culture system.

 

[bill2505]

i like the idea posted here about culture guys but make it optional .please?

 

[Hydromancerx]

i like the idea posted here about culture guys but make it optional .please?

I am not even sure how you would make such a thing optional since just to get to that stage would mean all civs would have to be optional, even the ones we have now. Since the other system by default would not want the current civs we have.

I am thinking that if we do pull this off it will be one of those things we we go all the way (much like the phasing out of UU and UB linked to playable civs was done).

Thus things like a modular civs or leaderheads would no longer be needed.

For now, within the span of the growth of the next version or so, the concept of having every civ have a world wonder starter that gives one cultural resource of that particular culture, then having a minor building for each town that adopts the culture (buildable if there is access to the resource) then a resource spreader building that can be built once for every 3-5 of the minor buildings built in your empire that gives you another civilization resource to trade off (mirroring the Holy City Shrine/Temples/Cathedrals of religions) seems to me to be the best way to work a culture system.

Now I am confused. At the moment I am in the process of making all "embassy" buildings into wonders again and these in turn produce a culture resource of that wonder's culture. These in turn would be required for culture units and buildings.

How are you envisioning it? Should the current culture buildings not be wonders? Are we going back to the old diagram I posted?

I see a few problems. Let say it goes like this ...

Terrain and/or Resource -> Local Culture (like temples) -> x3 Local Culture -> National Culture (like Cathedral)-> Culture Resource -> Culture Units and/or Buildings

With this set up your 3 local cultures cannot produce cultures units or buildings since they depend upon the resources. You also cannot have a local culture building require the culture resource if it requires a specific terrain. My idea was like this ...

Terrain and/or Resource -> National Culture [Wonder] -> Culture Resource -> Culture Units and/or Buildings

This cuts out the middle man, however being a wonder means no other civ can be that culture unless you trade culture resources. I think this may be both similar and easier to implement since all I need to do is make the new culture resources (which I am doing) and then convert the exiting local culture buildings into resource producing wonders. And of course link all units UUs and UBs to the new culture resources.

EDIT: On a side note having UUs and UBs require a resource means we could if we wanted to add a UB to each individual civ and allow them to have their UUs and UBs in the old style again. The only catch is there are more culture resources than there are playable civs.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Need to go to work... I'll comment tonight but that's close to what I think would be a good way to go for now but with a slight adjustment I'll explain then.

Edit: over the next few days I'll flush this out fully.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Need to go to work... I'll comment tonight but that's close to what I think would be a good way to go for now but with a slight adjustment I'll explain then.

Edit: over the next few days I'll flush this out fully.

So I added a new resource for every culture. Before I apply them to the buildings I would like to hear your idea. Otherwise my plan is to make all the culture buildings produce the new resource and get turned into a Wonder.

 

[strategyonly]

So I added a new resource for every culture. Before I apply them to the buildings I would like to hear your idea. Otherwise my plan is to make all the culture buildings produce the new resource and get turned into a Wonder.

But if you turn it into a Wonder, wont that take away from how many can be built then in each city?

 

[Hydromancerx]

But if you turn it into a Wonder, wont that take away from how many can be guilt then in each city?

That's the trade off, you will only get so many cultures per city and they will have to fight for space with other wonders. However each culture would produce a resources in which spreads to all your cities and could even be traded with other civs.

Personally I think its a good balance for allowing such a resource to be so widely available once the wonder is built.

 

[EldrinFal]

That's the trade off, you will only get so many cultures per city and they will have to fight for space with other wonders. However each culture would produce a resources in which spreads to all your cities and could even be traded with other civs.

Personally I think its a good balance for allowing such a resource to be so widely available once the wonder is built.

I think allowing some way to exchange or gain cultures other than combat/assimilation would be a good thing. I'm playing the Egyptians now, which is an African base, and I have not been able to found a single culture; maybe because I'm playing on a Wet map and African cultures require a hotter/drier climate? So either via trade or capturing workers and using them to make their culture back in my city would be great.

With this set up your 3 local cultures cannot produce cultures units or buildings since they depend upon the resources. You also cannot have a local culture building require the culture resource if it requires a specific terrain. My idea was like this ...

Terrain and/or Resource -> National Culture [Wonder] -> Culture Resource -> Culture Units and/or Buildings

This cuts out the middle man, however being a wonder means no other civ can be that culture unless you trade culture resources. I think this may be both similar and easier to implement since all I need to do is make the new culture resources (which I am doing) and then convert the exiting local culture buildings into resource producing wonders. And of course link all units UUs and UBs to the new culture resources.

I've suggested this in the past so I agree with it The same culture arising in separate parts of the world is odd to me-- even WITH the same terrain features. But spreading culture is perfectly natural.

 

[Jonaleth]

But if you turn it into a Wonder, wont that take away from how many can be built then in each city?

Or group them under a new Wonder category - Civ wonders (?) - having the following constraints:
- can only be built in the capital
- can only have 1 of each
- attached to Palace (moves with it if capital changed)

And coincidentally, you could also include the various "Myth of ...." buildings into this category

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Or group them under a new Wonder category - Civ wonders (?) - having the following constraints:
- can only be built in the capital
- can only have 1 of each
- attached to Palace (moves with it if capital changed)

And coincidentally, you could also include the various "Myth of ...." buildings into this category

Big problem for the sea based myths if your capital is not on a coast. I am working on it.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Ok, sorry for taking so long to get back to explain... been a bit distracted.


So its pretty simple really:

1: Each Culture has a Resource, a World Wonder Birthplace building, a Culture Style (like a temple but represents a local community really adopting in the culture in its ways and styles), and a Cultural Seed building that represents the deepening national adoption of the culture to the extent that it has become more and more a part of the fabric of the people such that even when trading, its possible to identify traits and share those cultural traits abroad.

In otherwords, to birth a Culture (aka build the World Wonder that starts a given culture):

• A city must exist in a nation that has access to the culture resource that our newly birthing culture is an evolution of. (some of the beginning cultures wouldn't have these requirements but you'd only be able to build one at a time.)
• The same city must also qualify on the basis of a number of creative and well rationaled factors such as we have now but not limited just to resources and region but also to present religions, technologies, etc...

This World Wonder gives your nation 1 of the Culture resource. You wouldn't want to trade this off right away.

Then you may now, as a result of having access to the Culture resource, build the Culture Style building in any of your cities. This building gives access to the UUs and UBs and the Heroes of the culture when otherwise technologically accessed.

For every 3 or 5 of these Culture Style buildings you build in your empire, you may also build a Cultural Seed building (much like a Cathedral). It could maybe add an additional trade route for tourism perhaps, as the city has become well known for its donations to and preeminence among its cultural heritage (like Vienna, Paris, or New York). This building also gives your civilization an additional Culture resource.

Now you may begin to trade off your culture resource for profitable gain and diplomatic benefits. Obviously, those civilizations you are trading such a culture to may then build the Culture Style buildings in its cities and cultural seed buildings as the influence of that culture grows in its empire, then trading it off even further.

While there's more to say, I'll let that stand for now.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Thunderbrd

Now that I understand what you mean I can now respond.

This is what I am going to do. I am gong to make all the existing culture buildings into World Wonders. They (like you planned) will make 1 resource of that culture. The requirements of the wonder will be the same for now but can be adjusted later to other factors such as region, civics, etc.

I will ask SO to convert all UU and Heroes to require the new culture resource instead of the building (now a wonder). I will also make any UBs that still exist require the new culture resource.

Now after that I will leave it up to you since its your idea. If you want to make culture "temples" and culture "cathedrals" then it will be your job to mod all that yourself. I do not mind having those, however I do mind having to make all those new buildings.

In short i will keep track of the 1st third (wonders, UBs and resources), SO will do the 2nd third (units and heroes) and you can do the last 3rd (temples and cathedrals).

Sound good?

 

[Thunderbrd]

If I didn't have a full time job and deepening $ stress demanding I find ways to sacrifice yet more time I'd leap on it but if I make any promises now it may go very poorly. Plus... I don't have much practice making buildings up from scratch yet.

The way you were considering going about this doesn't sound too bad in terms of making for a good shortcut methodology, but I wonder if there'd be a way to make the one wonder building capable of giving you an extra culture resource when you qualify to receive more (by # of cities, global culture, population of main city, # of trade routes... something to trigger you getting more of them eventually for trade...)

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well we are all busy with real life which is why I was trying to keep it as simple as we can. I don't want to have to add 3 buildings and 1 resource for every new culture we add. Its bad enough having to filling each xml for a single building each time.

And I don't think that is possible at the moment. Perhaps AIAndy or someone could make that happen, but it seems like a lot of work, for something I am not even sure could work.

At any rate at least with my proposal the basics are set up so the game can work as well be ready to be added onto with your temple/cathedral system.

 

[AIAndy]

The way you were considering going about this doesn't sound too bad in terms of making for a good shortcut methodology, but I wonder if there'd be a way to make the one wonder building capable of giving you an extra culture resource when you qualify to receive more (by # of cities, global culture, population of main city, # of trade routes... something to trigger you getting more of them eventually for trade...)

While possible, it sounds like too much work for too little gain when you can just have an extra building with the requirements that you can then build to get more of the culture resource.

 

[strategyonly]

@ Hydro:

Looking over some of the new resources, i need Bonus_Huns for Attila

Also how are "we" going to do specialized civs like Nazi Germany, Confederacy, Union Army etc?

 

[Praetyre]

Nazi Germany isn't a civ or a culture, just one of the special dynamic civ names. I don't think the Confederacy should be a culture either (outside of specialized scenarios), any more than Arizona or Montana or Virginia should be. Though, I do like the idea of splinter civs which still share the same root culture, i.e. the various city states for Italy and Greece, the Confederacy and California/Texas Republics for US, Danzig Free State for Germany/Poland, the Mughals for India and so on. Could have very good potential