C3C HoF trait discussion

[Darkness]

I'm opening this thread because I'm planning on starting a new HoF game soon, this time in C3C.
My question is: Which traits would you choose?
I'm pretty much certain of agricultural, which will really increase early growth, which I think is the most important part of a highscoring game.
But the second trait I'm not sure about. I'm thinking either industrious (for the faster workers, but they are less powerful in C3C than in PTW) or scientific (cheap libraries and free tech each new era)...

I'd like to know your opinions on this.

BTW, I'm planning a chieftain level game, to see if I can knock Bremp of the first spot, so I'm not really worried about needing my UU to trigger my GA. I think I can pull that one of by building some great wonders... .

 

[superslug]

Mayans. End of thread.

 

[Darkness]

Originally posted by superslug
Mayans. End of thread.

Industrious/agricultural...

Good call, but what about the Sumerians (agricultural/scientific, enkidu warrior). After all, you can always build more workers, you can't compensate for the free tech each age or the cheap libraries...

 

[superslug]

Scientific is almost useless to me now. For one thing, I never build libraries. Furthermore, you can compensate for the free tech each age by just gifting/trading with Scientific AI's. I was lucky with ending up with five random ones in my current game. Now that Aeson is letting us choose our AI, I may make Scientifics a regular...

I'll say this much, Ag is now god, although Ind wasn't reduced that much.

 

[Darkness]

Originally posted by superslug
Scientific is almost useless to me now. For one thing, I never build libraries.

Why not? They are essential to me (in my core cities) for getting to tech/4 turns research pace. And sure, you can gift the scientific AI's into the new era, techwise, but then you don't have all the first tier techs of that era yet. That's where the free tech comes in handy. It'll allow you to trade for the other new era techs you're missing....

 

[superslug]

Originally posted by Darkness
Why not?

Never seemed like it was worth the upkeep money, I always hit the 4 turn minimum eventually just based on sheer empire size. But let me ask you this, are libraries most effective in core cities or any city? Is there a point to building them in the corruption zone?

The reason I ask is that is because I haven't built a single library in any of my HOF games but I'm thinking I'll give them a try in my next one. If you say they're worth it, that's good enough for me to use them at least one game...

Originally posted by Darkness
And sure, you can gift the scientific AI's into the new era, techwise, but then you don't have all the first tier techs of that era yet.

You've probably got me on the libraries but I have pulled this off several times, twice actually as the nonscientific Mayans. What you do is gift them up to the next age by only giving them the requisite techs to get out of an age. With the right cash on hand and optional techs for trade you outright purchase one starting tech. You then get the other two by selling/trading.

Still, I admit it's much easier with a Scientific civ, and you do get a better chance of generating SGL's...

EDIT: Okay, so we're going back and forth on the improved Scientific. In regards to the other traits:
-Agricultural is the new definitive king I think.
-Industrious was weakened slightly, but is still very powerful.
-Expansionism got a boost but is still conditional on map and barbs.
-Relgious, Commercial and Militaristic still suit some players but not all.
-Seafaring is a pile of crap.

 

[Svar]

I really like the Mayans, the Javelin Throwers used properly are awesome. I get lots of free barbarian slaves with them and can trigger my GA whenever I want. I have decided to restrict their use to barb hunting though. I lost too many to even warriors in normal combat. I still haven't conducted a great start with the Mayans but I'm learning. Settling next to fresh water in the early stages is the key and in every start I tried that wasn't a good world for a try. My present Monarch try only had about 5 or 6 cities next to fresh water because I was using a strict OCP layout.

 

[Aeson]

Seafaring and Agricultural (Dutch) work well on high domination limit maps. Tend to be more archipelago form, and even if the landmasses are connected, it's usually faster to cross the water than to go snaking around.

The Ottomans are still a good choice because of Sipahi, but Agricultural civs have the most scoring potential. They can use Desert for a good portion of the game without taking a scoring hit, and Oasis/Floodplain cities become very good.

I think on low-mid difficulty levels (pangaea) the Iroquois might be the best civ now. Commercial, Agricultural, and Mounted Warriors. Plus you can count on Horses a lot more than Iron in C3C.

 

[Darkness]

@superslug:
You are correct, of course. I had completely forgotten to consider the optional techs. I think this is a viable tech only on the lower levels, because on the higher levels the AI's will have gotten some of the optional techs themselves, and there are only three optional techs in the ancient age. Now I don't mind giving the AI's literature, but at the higher levels I'd rather keep the government techs away from them as long as possible. At chieftain level, this point is, of course, moot...

In regards to libraries. I build them only in the core cities, where I defenately think they are worth the upkeep, but not in the corrupt zones.

@Aeson:
I understand your argument about the mounted warriors and agricultural for low/mid level games, but commercial? The tech cost is low enough on the lower levels to not needing the decreased corruption levels and still get 4-turn research as well as a good cashflow, provided you've improved your lands and cities enough...

 

[superslug]

Originally posted by Darkness
@superslug:
At chieftain level, this point is, of course, moot...

I do imagine things will be quite different my next game when I go back up levels and warmonger again.

 

[Darkness]

Originally posted by superslug

I do imagine things will be quite different my next game when I go back up levels and warmonger again.

Actually, I wasn't referring to your pacifist attempt, but rather to my projected new HoF game, which will also be at chieftain level...

 

[superslug]

If I want my pacifist score to survive more than one update I better do better than #10 so you don't knock me off...

 

[Aeson]

Commercial is a great trait on Huge maps. Alphabet being the most expensive starting tech is nice, gives you a chance to research an extra tech or two before Philosophy, and still get it first. Code of Laws (or even Polytheism) before Philosophy, and choose Republic (or Monarchy) as your free tech.

Higher OCN ends up giving you a handful of productive cities you wouldn't otherwise.

These are both things that probably become more important the higher the level, but still give the same benefits on lower levels. The reason I wouldn't say the Iroquois are best on higher levels is because on Demigod, Deity, or Sid, the AI will probably have Pikes shortly after (or before in the case of Sid) the time a decent force of MW's can be built.

 

[superslug]

Originally posted by Aeson
Higher OCN ends up giving you a handful of productive cities you wouldn't otherwise.

Yeah, I could see how it could also give you back the productive cities we lost when they crapped up the FP and deprived us of a second core...

 

[pelmeister]

Prior to C3C, this was almost an academic discussion - at lower levels it was either Babylon or Persians depending on whether or not you were a builder or a destroyer - and at higher levels it was either Persians or Greeks depending on whether or not you attacked with bombardment or not.

C3C has undoubtedly changed this. Depending on the type of map, there are clear winners and losers. Even Brits have a chance on Sid with Huge peligo. Superslug's HoF effort on Chieftain with Mayans highlights the advantage of agrarian in lower levels using Pangea. At higher levels Babylon remains awesome in tiny pangea maps, where cultural assimilation is key. Bamspeedy showed the advantage of France with the palace pre-build in getting the GL. [Dutch are certainly interesting at Sid level, but I personally put the "Scouting Sid" victory down to player skill rather than any traits.]

However, C3C has introduced a very interesting element with the "Statue of Zeus" factor. I suspect Persians / ivory + iron / small / continents is a winner at all levels. Obviously you don't know if you've got iron for a while, but you've a very good idea if you've got ivory and as long as ivory isn't too widely dispersed you've a very good chance at any level of getting the SoZ. However, as Persians, at a higher level, you do need continents to be able to trade.

The reason I bring up Persians as the SoZ play is that my complaint about the immortal is that attacking either towns on hills or militaristic towns, the immortal is anything but immortal. However, a pre-emptive strike by ancient cavs is arguably even better than a bombardment, since you are guaranteed to attack the defender rather than improvements or the population.

 

[superslug]

Interesting points about smaller maps, Pelmeister! I think so far all the contribution to the conversation had been from huge mappers.

Oh, and while my current game may be illustrating the power of the Ag trait and the Mayans, I have to admit it was Moonsinger's posts about them that got me swung over...

 

[Muldoon]

Hi,

I'm planning an attempt at Bremp's Chieftan score and was wondering if you guys thought that the Mayans would be able to pull it off assuming a great start and large domination area?
Or with the palace jump exploit and RCP gone from conquests would it be better to stick with civ3/PTW and use the exploits?
I have been generating maps for a few days now and have great starts for the Mayans and also the Egyptians in PTW - thanks to the awesome map generator. I think the Mayans could be a better option but am interested in your thoughts!

BTW - have started on the egyptian game and are only 4 cities behind Bremp at 1000bc, but have a higher score.

 

[superslug]

Muldoon, I think the Mayans would be the way to go. If I were trying it, I'd try and find a map with at least more tiles than Bremps and a starting location that would provide three or four lowcorruption 4 turn Settler factories. The tax specialists generate more gold in C3C than in PTW and I'm finding that to make up a good bit of difference for the loss of RCP and the Jump.

 

[EMan]

Keep on GOING with your Egyptian Game!

Here's why:
1. You are close to Bremp's score and if you play a GOOD game, you might take the #1 spot BUT, in any case you'll make the top 10! (For what it's worth, my Monarch #1 game was ALSO Egyptians, had NO RCP, NO Palace Rank Exploit, NO Map Generator. [I think the Dom Limit was around 3600!.....nothing special anyways])

2. You will learn a lot about milking AND having the Egyptians will allow you to polish off ALL the AI's with only War Chariots and Horses..............trust me on this! (Providing you don't wait too long to take on the AI's!)
[AND, you can basically start the Golden Age WHENEVER you feel like it!]

3. Yes, I think superslug may well be CORRECT to be infatuated with the Mayans using Conquests but remember the advantage on getting more food on a desert tile may NOT be an OVERWHELMING benefit, albeit a GOOD one, as in the "End-Game" position, you probably don't "need" desert tiles as you can get to the Domination Limit with Grassland-pure, Grassland-Jungle, Plains, Plains-Jungle, Floodplains & Coast-Sea combos!

4. I think what must be EMPHASISED is the SKILL (a.k.a. Moonsinger, SirPleb, Bremp et al) in actually PLAYING out the game..........I believe Bremp's GREAT score CAN be beaten with GOOD play and WITHOUT the Palace Rank Exploit OR Ring City Placement. (Of course, a HIGH Domination Limit will make it a lot easier!)

The KEY Factor: The MORE you play, the BETTER player you will become!

 

[superslug]

Originally posted by EMan
3. Yes, I think superslug may well be CORRECT to be infatuated with the Mayans using Conquests but remember the advantage on getting more food on a desert tile may NOT be an OVERWHELMING benefit, albeit a GOOD one...

While helpful, the desert tile bonus doesn't mean much to me in the long run. For me the huge difference is the extra food in the city tile itself.

Originally posted by EMan
The KEY Factor: The MORE you play, the BETTER player you will become!

This is of course the most important thing, and while I'm enamored with the Mayans, I think EMan is making a good call with your continuation of the Egyptians. On Chieftain, you're at little risk of your UU becoming obsolete.