Resource icon

C3X: EXE Mod including Bug Fixes, Stack Bombard, and Much More Release 16

If you find mass upgrading and pillaging+reconnecting too busted then mod the game to change that.

I don't find it busted at all. On the contrary, I would find it busted if such upgrading got removed. I'd even say that, if anything, the Mongols and India are busted, since you simply can't do horseman -> cavalry upgrades with either of them once you have horses and have upgraded all of your horseman from before you learned Chivalry. They had to make it so that horseman to cavalry or knights were possible for most civs, because a civilization can lose resources like iron or saltpeter easily, including human new player lead civilizations. The Mongols and India not having the same ability makes them much inferior choices militarily, and it isn't like the Mongols have builders advantages either.

But I guess if Flintlock was able to make the AI's worker management better in the future there'd be people complaining that it's "not what the devs intended".

I wasn't complaining that Flintlock did things outside of the devs intent. I did notice that, in my opinion, he did such. But, you Predator, like others (including myself previously, but not along) have called his mod a patch:

No one is claiming Flintlock's patch is for "balance" purposes.

If something is a patch, then it will be consistent with what the developers intent was. If something is not consistent with what the developers intent was, then that something is not a patch. And in my opinion, it differs from the developers intent. In some respects. So, to speak accurately, it's not Flintlock's patch. It's Flintlock's mod.
 
If you prefer to play with connect+disconnect mass upgrades a way to help Indians and Mongols to have the same capabilities is to create a "Horseman2" unit that upgrades to Cavalry available at Mil Trad. It's not elegant but it works.
 
If you prefer to play with connect+disconnect mass upgrades a way to help Indians and Mongols to have the same capabilities is to create a "Horseman2" unit that upgrades to Cavalry available at Mil Trad. It's not elegant but it works.

Thank you. I do appreciate the suggestion!
 
If something is a patch, then it will be consistent with what the developers intent was. If something is not consistent with what the developers intent was, then that something is not a patch. And in my opinion, it differs from the developers intent. In some respects. So, to speak accurately, it's not Flintlock's patch. It's Flintlock's mod.

And this is exactly what Flintlock is calling his brilliant work: C3X: Executable Mod for Civ 3 Complete. Please have a look into the readme file of his mod.

I and some other civers have called this a patch, according to the wonderful fixes of bugs in C3C that seemed to be not fixable, and are included in this mod. Especially outside this thread, I continue to name it a patch - despite this outstanding work is much more than a patch - so the readers understand about what I am writing here.
 
I and some other civers have called this a patch, according to the wonderful fixes of bugs in C3C that seemed to be not fixable, and are included in this mod. Especially outside this thread, I continue to name it a patch - despite this outstanding work is much more than a patch - so the readers understand about what I am writing here.

Because you apparently have no interest in calling this a mod elsewhere in the future, and seek to call it a patch, I continue to object. It is not a patch. Not in it's entirety.

The original game designers, in my best guess, wouldn't have sought artillery to behave as they do for AIs, or the AIs to build so many of them. Perhaps even that may be because it can make things easier, since the human player can capture artillery type units instead of building them or building fewer artillery type units. Artillery type units also mean fewer battles between human player units and AI units, since they build artillery instead of something else. It's very different when an archer fights a spear, then when one or a few catapults bombard a spear, and then the archer fights the spear. I don't mean tactically (though of course they are different tactically), I mean that the quality of those battles is different. Fighting a stack of 8-10 pikeman with trebuchets is much different than fighting usual AI stacks. It has felt different in my experience. I also think that a smart combined arms stack, which I think Flintlock wants or wanted, isn't something that the original developers wanted for AIs and just couldn't code due to time constraints or something else.

I may be wrong. Perhaps they would have tried to develop artillery type units in a similar manner and just didn't get around to it, or predicted complex problems with execution and avoided doing so for that reason. But, in addition to distinguishing between, iirc, "good AI" and "fun AI" (with civ III AIs being "fun AI" unlike say Deep Blue or more recently Alpha Go or Stockfish which would get classified as "good AI"), Soren Johnson talked about how they did anticipate that players would make peace with AIs and then go straight back to war on the next turn. And also that players would sometimes just leave cities empty, because they realized/predicted that the AIs wouldn't attack them. He also mentioned that those sorts of things were deliberately not made possibilities for AIs. So, I feel sure, that they didn't seek to make the AIs and the human players have the same behavior.
 
Well, I was actually meaning "Skip Turn" command, but unfortunately I've forgotten how exactly was it called (stack "wait" might be good as well, though).
Ah, ok. I hadn't even considered skip turn since I rarely use it myself, instead I use fortify so that way I can change my mind later.
The AI deleted all of them always in the same turns. If needed I can reconfigurate a biq for such a test without any problems.
That's definitely strange then. I know the AI can join its workers but I've never heard of it mass deleting them before. I could have a look through the worker unit AI to see if I can find what's triggering it to do that. It would help to have a test scenario so I'll keep your offer in mind for when/if I get around to looking into this. I already have some other things lined up for the next 1 or 2 releases.
 
Because you apparently have no interest in calling this a mod elsewhere in the future, and seek to call it a patch, I continue to object. It is not a patch. Not in it's entirety.

So please do these remarks in future to my posts outside this thread when this work is called a patch instead of a mod, if you think this is worth your time. You can start here in this post in a German civforum: https://www.civforum.de/showthread....eutsch-Patch&p=9052821&viewfull=1#post9052821

The reason why I still call it a patch in this thread is to avoid confusion among civers who have never played Civ 3 yet and should be attracted in trying to play it, despite all those incompetent voices, who are posting that Civ 3 is the worst part of the civ series.

The original game designers, in my best guess, wouldn't have sought artillery to behave as they do for AIs, or the AIs to build so many of them.

Flintlock showed that the wrong AI routine for land artillery clearly results from an error in the programming how the AI is choosing the escort units for the land artillery. Flintlock only provided tools for modders to change this and to try outbalancing it. It is the task of the modders to deliver here better results.

Spoonwood, have you ever tried to use these tools and the options in the C3C editor in trying to outbalance these problems ?

I also think that a smart combined arms stack, which I think Flintlock wants or wanted, isn't something that the original developers wanted for AIs and just couldn't code due to time constraints or something else.

This is all speculation. Fact is, now modders are closer to this goal when trying to achieve it by using the tools in the Flintlock mod.

Soren Johnson talked about how they did anticipate that players would make peace with AIs and then go straight back to war on the next turn. And also that players would sometimes just leave cities empty, because they realized/predicted that the AIs wouldn't attack them.

If these human players still try to leave their cities empty, since R10, they run into the problem that paratroopers can conquer and raze those cities in the same turn. Again it is the task of the modders to outbalance this by the range they give for paradropping these units. Per example in CCM there exist paratroopers that can be dropped worldwide.

All in all, nobody is forced to use the Flintlock mod and which of its features are enabled or disabled. The only consequence is, that now ultra-conservative civers no longer can pray some of their old Civ 3 dogmas with an universal effect for Civ 3 - but they still can play their C3C games in the believe, that the sun circles around the earth. :)
 
I appreciate the invitation to post, but I don't speak German. So, I don't feel it appropriate to post in a German speaking forum.

Spoonwood, have you ever tried to use these tools and the options in the C3C editor in trying to outbalance these problems ?

No, I have not.

This is all speculation.

Don't you think that they deliberately programmed attack units such that they would make half-hearted attacks consistently? That say they anticipated that a just one or two AI cavalry would try to attack one of the human player's cities in the industrial era in a single turn? If they deliberately programmed the AI so that it would often make half-hearted attacks (which they do... even at high levels), I see plenty of basis for believing that the game designers wouldn't have sought to make a smart combined arms stack.
 
I appreciate the invitation to post, but I don't speak German. So, I don't feel it appropriate to post in a German speaking forum.

You are invited to write your post in that forum in English. May be such a post wouldn´t be a bad idea as it gives me the opportunity to explain, why I still name it a patch in that forum.

Don't you think that they deliberately programmed attack units such that they would make half-hearted attacks consistently? That say they anticipated that a just one or two AI cavalry would try to attack one of the human player's cities in the industrial era in a single turn? If they deliberately programmed the AI so that it would often make half-hearted attacks (which they do... even at high levels), I see plenty of basis for believing that the game designers wouldn't have sought to make a smart combined arms stack.

Yes, I think this is included in the programming of C3C, as it is shown in the mods CCM 1 and CCM 2 by the successful attacks of enslavers, holy men and lawyers against cities. Even without the new settings of paratroopers since R10 this is an old setting by me to deal with that concept of human players to leave some of their cities empty or only with a weak defense and especially to leave their workers undefended.
 
Last edited:
Paratroopers being able to act instantly after airdropping is scary. Now their puny attack stat is actually balanced. In the WW2 Pacific Scenario where their stats are 6/8 they are a an absolute menace combined with japanese airpower. If you have lots of ICS specialist farms within their drop range better start drafting defenders.
 
Because you apparently have no interest in calling this a mod elsewhere in the future, and seek to call it a patch, I continue to object. It is not a patch. Not in it's entirety.
There are many quality of life changes and bug fixes that are in line of what a patch is expected to do. It is perfectly feasily to use C3X in a configuration for which it would be appropriate to call it a patch.

Of course the mod is not limited to such configurations, hence it may make sense to call it a patch+ or simply a mod. But simply calling it a patch has the potential to better convey the essence. What exactly the essence is, is of course subjective.
 
There are many quality of life changes and bug fixes that are in line of what a patch is expected to do. It is perfectly feasily to use C3X in a configuration for which it would be appropriate to call it a patch.

Of course the mod is not limited to such configurations, hence it may make sense to call it a patch+ or simply a mod. But simply calling it a patch has the potential to better convey the essence. What exactly the essence is, is of course subjective.

Gentlemen, gentlemen! Why are we quibbling about the name to give an extraordinarily fine cake we've just tasted :nono:
 
What would the AIs be producing in the non-modded game in comparison to when they produce artillery type units in this mod?

I would guess it's likely that they have a greater probability of paying more in unit support with this mod than in classic civ III. Especially for AIs with a strategic resource.
 
What would the AIs be producing in the non-modded game in comparison to when they produce artillery type units in this mod?

I would guess it's likely that they have a greater probability of paying more in unit support with this mod than in classic civ III. Especially for AIs with a strategic resource.
The AI still produces stuff like artillery, cruise missiles and tactical nukes in stock game. You can see it every time you have spies. But these things are stuck uselessly in their original city and in C3C the artillery doesn't even fire. There are times when I've spied into the city I'm about to attack, turned on combat animation, expected their artillery pieces to fire upon my troops parking outside for a turn before the assault. But that never happened.

The AU mod had "never build artillery" checked. The AI is better off not wasting shields on them at all if all they do is provide static defensive bombard.

If you enable AI artilery use in Flintlock patch these same otherwise idle pieces would be put into action. What does change is the AI thinning out their city defenses to escort them. I try to offset that by ticking "build defensive units often". You can also adjust how artillery heavy you want the AI to be.

With artillery being capturable however, the number of pieces would accumulate over time, making run away AIs run away even worse. The same snowballing effect also applies to the human player. You shall never have to build another piece after defeating the first AI.
 
It's also worth recalling that Artillery Units with a bombard range of 0 will use their Bombardment Strength for defense, but will only inflict 1 HP of damage, no matter what you set the rate of fire as.
Does defensive bombard work only once per turn or can a single artillery piece continue to help the unit escorting it against all attacks?
 
The AI still produces stuff like artillery, cruise missiles and tactical nukes in stock game. You can see it every time you have spies. But these things are stuck uselessly in their original city and in C3C the artillery doesn't even fire. There are times when I've spied into the city I'm about to attack, turned on combat animation, expected their artillery pieces to fire upon my troops parking outside for a turn before the assault. But that never happened.

The AU mod had "never build artillery" checked. The AI is better off not wasting shields on them at all if all they do is provide static defensive bombard.

If you enable AI artilery use in Flintlock patch these same otherwise idle pieces would be put into action. What does change is the AI thinning out their city defenses to escort them. I try to offset that by ticking "build defensive units often". You can also adjust how artillery heavy you want the AI to be.

With artillery being capturable however, the number of pieces would accumulate over time, making run away AIs run away even worse. The same snowballing effect also applies to the human player. You shall never have to build another piece after defeating the first AI.

Other than you saying "Flintlock patch", I think you're correct.


But, my question concerned about what changes happen to the AIs production and their economy with the Flintlock mod instead of the classic not modded game as it stands on disks, steam, or GOG. Catapults are less expensive than horseman and swordsmen, just as expensive as spearmen, though more expensive than warriors. Trebuchets are less expensive than medieval infantry, longbowman, knights, cavalry, and just as expensive as pikeman. Cannons are also less expensive than many other units. Artillery proper are more equal to other units, but if you start in the ancient era, the AIs have already been building other units, so such an equality doesn't matter as much as earlier potential differences. The AIs build artillery type units more often with the Flintlock mod than in the classic game. Flintlock said that he changed frequency in an earlier post, and I think we've both observed that even accounting for artillery type units in cities in the classic game. The AIs build those artillery type units rather than something else as they do in the classic game, but I don't exactly know what they build artillery type units instead of. But still, I'm guessing that usually with the Flintlock mod the AIs will have more units overall than if they had been under the classic game's conditions. And thus, I conjecture that the AIs in Flintlock's mod usually, if not almost always, have to pay more in unit support than classic AIs do. If the AIs pay more in unit support, that suggests there doesn't exist as much gold per turn that the human player can obtain by selling technology, AND there's often less gold per turn that an AI can use to purchase technology from another AI.

In the Flintlock mod, without us changing the settings, just as they come if you download and install it, what are the AIs building artillery type units instead of?
 
"; Set to a number to encourage the AI to build more artillery, set to false or <= 0 for no change in AI unit build choices. The number is how many
; artillery units the AI will try to keep around for every 100 non-artillery combat land units it has. The encouragement only applies if the AI is
; already above a minimum of one defensive unit per city and one offensive unit per two cities. Default: 20."

Set "ai_build_artillery_ratio =" to "false" if you want stock game artillery building behavior.

As you can see, if you increase that value to above 0 that's gonna be the percentage of artillery in relation to land combat units (defensive and offensive flags) AFTER the minimum quota of units assigned per city is met (to avoid the AI emptying its cities to escort artillery) ON TOP of what it would build in stock game.

I guess "Default" value (1/5 of land forces) is Flintlock's own while "false" is stock game's (which is certainly lower than that).

If you run "false" the AI would produce the same number of units as in stock game, running the same support costs. Captured pieces are of course free as they are for the human player. Personally, I modded artillery to be killable with -4HP and low defense. I don't want units to pile on excessively esp when observing on debug.

By the end of the day, you can play Flintlock's version with 100% stock game mechanics while enjoying quality of life features like trade toggling, refill, stack bombing, etc. That's why it's a patch first and only a mod if you want it to be.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom