C3X: EXE Mod including Bug Fixes, Stack Bombard, and Much More Release 23

[tjs282]

Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting that the (moddable) AI cost-factor and trade-rate are cheats.

The "cheats" (for me) are rather things like the AI-Civs knowing where all the Strat-Res are going to appear (and founding towns on them!) before learning the respective tech; or knowing which of my cities are the most lightly garrisoned (without paying the espionage-mission costs); or being able to rush or draft an extra defender(s) during my turn (when I didn't have quite enough attackers to take that town this turn); or breaking its deals with apparent impunity, etc. But these are also all things that the AI can do at every difficulty level.

 

[MARK V]

I think the number of people that would benefit from these changes would be something to consider. How about starting a poll and asking players themselves if they think they would benefit from a feature? This way we can be sure it's not time and effort being "wasted".

It was my request/offer, and I canceled it out of respect for the time and energy of the man who makes it possible for all of us to improve this game as we wish. I want a lot of things, and this and many other things, but I feel ashamed to ask @Flintlock to waste his personal time on my controversial desires. But if we want smth together, I think our dreams will be heard.

 

[ZergMazter]

@MARK V
@tjs282
@vmxa

I'm not trying to be controversial or anything and I do understand the constraints of having 1 guy do all of the work singlehandedly. I'm merely pointing out from experience playing other people's mods that had custom specialists. The AI is just going to be the AI and it can be manipulated to behave a certain way. The AI wont enjoy the specialists. We will! It looks to me like it's a lot easier to just do something for the human players enjoyment than it would be to modify the AI behavior in this specific case, rather than saying "the AI can't use it then skip".

This is why I gave my suggestions in my original thread. Even though the AI will be dumb I suggested to get the option to get SPECIFIC specialists with locked specialties (among other suggestions), so that neither humans or AI could change them. At that point it wont matter if you can or cannot modify AI behavior as they will be stuck with what they get. If it was possible to get most things in my list we could make a real case for the AI using specialists FORCEFULLY without actually making the AI smarter. Add the +food to that same specialist and it will really be like a civ 4 super specialist that doesnt even consume food and players and AIs can use them, even if unintended for the AI. You'd just have to "guide" the AI to use them properly by pure manipulation by the human players in the editor.

Now that to me sounds easier. We are the brains we can make it happen vs actually making the AI smarter, unless of course we had the source code. In the end if Flint was able to get that AI behavior down then heck yeah. I'm with you guys. That would be the best outcome for us all.

I'd also like to clarify that this is just my opinion and not an attack. It's difficult to express complex ideas through text and some times the tones of communication might not sound as intended.

 

[MARK V]

@MARK V
@tjs282
@vmxa

I'm not trying to be controversial or anything and I do understand the constraints of having 1 guy do all of the work singlehandedly. I'm merely pointing out from experience playing other people's mods that had custom specialists. The AI is just going to be the AI and it can be manipulated to behave a certain way. The AI wont enjoy the specialists. We will! It looks to me like it's a lot easier to just do something for the human players enjoyment than it would be to modify the AI behavior in this specific case, rather than saying "the AI can't use it then skip".

This is why I gave my suggestions in my original thread. Even though the AI will be dumb I suggested to get the option to get SPECIFIC specialists with locked specialties (among other suggestions), so that neither humans or AI could change them. At that point it wont matter if you can or cannot modify AI behavior as they will be stuck with what they get. If it was possible to get most things in my list we could make a real case for the AI using specialists FORCEFULLY without actually making the AI smarter. Add the +food to that same specialist and it will really be like a civ 4 super specialist that doesnt even consume food and players and AIs can use them, even if unintended for the AI. You'd just have to "guide" the AI to use them properly by pure manipulation by the human players in the editor.

Now that to me sounds easier. We are the brains we can make it happen vs actually making the AI smarter, unless of course we had the source code. In the end if Flint was able to get that AI behavior down then heck yeah. I'm with you guys. That would be the best outcome for us all.

I'd also like to clarify that this is just my opinion and not an attack. It's difficult to express complex ideas through text and some times the tones of communication might not sound as intended.

I want to be understood correctly, I do not consider your idea unnecessary or uninteresting, I decided that my request about obsoleting of specialists was unnecessary, but my words had nothing to do with your idea.

Your idea is interesting, and I also suggested expanding the possibilities of working with specialists here:

And CULTURE! Furthermore, it would be interesting to tie the ability to hire specialists to improvements and modify their usefulness as technologies are learned, like in Civ IV. But I let my dreams fly away too far.

...make it possible for wonders or improvements to provide free specialists (then the AI skills really won't matter) and generally implement the mechanics of specialists from Civ4 as much as possible.

 

[tjs282]

I'd also like to clarify that this is just my opinion and not an attack.

Dont worry on my account -- I certainly don't feel attacked.

Any difference of opinion that we might have is almost certainly down to my still thinking of C3X primarily as a GUI and 'bugfix' mod (which is also how I'm using it) -- but I do realise that it is now much more than that, and an absolute boon for most (all? ) of the other participants in this thread, who want more fundamental modding tools put at their disposal.

At the end of the day, even if nothing else is added to C3X which I want to use, I'm still grateful for what's been done to improve the AI's performance in my games. I recognise that this is @Flintlock's hobby-project, so it's also entirely his decision which problems he wants to pursue, and which additions he wants to make, and I don't resent anyone else for making any suggestions of their own.

 

[Flintlock]

Hi !
First time I post here. I noticed (it is quite obvious actually) that the AI never builds a city within its own cultural borders.

Welcome! Unfortunately it's not obvious in the AI's logic where this restriction is. There are a few points in the AI's city location evaluator where it checks bits on tiles surrounding the location that might be checking if the tiles are within any borders, but I don't actually know what those bits represent. I'd have to spend the time to completely decode the location evaluator to make this change, and actually, I've been thinking of replacing it entirely since there are a lot of changes I'd like to make.

 

[Alekseyev_]

Just remembered another thing for scenarios that's always been really annoying: could you make it so that flag/princess units don't have to be escorted when entering the victory location or capital (depending on reverse flag), so they can be moved on their own? And flag/princess units created in the capital (in case of a reverse capture the princess scenario) should ideally just cash themselves in right away, instead of having to be escorted a tile out and back in.

In the vanilla editor, they still need the immobile property to be assigned the AI flag unit strategy, sadly, so I doubt they'd be able to make use of e.g. self-mobile convoys :/

 

[Civinator]

In the vanilla editor, they still need the immobile property to be assigned the AI flag unit strategy, sadly, so I doubt they'd be able to make use of e.g. self-mobile convoys :/

The CCM mods since many years show, that it is enough to set the flag unit (in CCM called supply shipment) to be the flag unit in the general settings and the Unit Abilities of the Firaxis editor and to give the unit the explore strategy to be mobile, but the last turn into the capital (with the capture the princess setting) that unit must be escorted to receive the gold, even for the AI civs.

"Autocashing" flag units that are produced in the capital would be nice, as even with the settings above, AI civs are not able to transform flag units, that are produced in the capital, into gold. The AI flag units are not able to move outside the capital and than be escorted back into the capital again.

 

[Alekseyev_]

What's the purpose of the explore strategy in your example? The flag unit "cash-in" functionality only depends on the "flag unit" unit ability.

 

[Civinator]

What's the purpose of the explore strategy in your example? The flag unit "cash-in" functionality only depends on the "flag unit" unit ability.

That the unit has an AI strategy and is mobile.

 

[Alekseyev_]

The unit can be moved regardless of AI strategies, as long as it has more than 0 moves and does not have the immobile flag. (Doesn't even need "go to" command, can use the numpad to move in its absence as long as the first two conditions are met.)

 

[Civinator]

The unit can be moved regardless of AI strategies, as long as it has more than 0 moves and does not have the immobile flag. (Doesn't even need "go to" command, can use the numpad to move in its absence as long as the first two conditions are met.)

This is simply wrong for the movement of AI flag units. AI units without any strategy are "dead" in the game. In that post you wrote it correct about the movement of AI flag units:

In the vanilla editor, they still need the immobile property to be assigned the AI flag unit strategy, sadly, so I doubt they'd be able to make use of e.g. self-mobile convoys :/

 

[Jorsalfare]

I use upgradeable flag units (shipments), and have seen AI both cash them in and upgrade them - even though they have no AI strategy at all. You are probably right that the ones produced in the capital won't be cashed in, but I believe AI will upgrade them there too (not sure). I checked my mod settings, and realized that the AI strategy "Flag Unit" CAN be set on a mobile flag unit - with the help of Quintillus' editor. I haven't tried it yet, but in my next game I will check the box for AI strategy: "Flag Unit" for shipments and see if it makes any difference.

 

[MARK V]

@Flintlock , there is a bug due to which the engineer specialist's productivity is not shown, there is an empty space under his image instead of shields.
Also If a specialist has two different abilities, for example it gives 1 happy face and 1 gold, then their pictures overlap. Will it be difficult to fix this?

Another question: the increasing of irrigation productivity after studying some tech is very lacking (the Biology like in Civ4 for example), how difficult will it be to make this?

 

[Herbert George]

@Flintlock , there is a bug due to which the engineer specialist's productivity is not shown, there is an empty space under his image instead of shields.
Also If a specialist has two different abilities, for example it gives 1 happy face and 1 gold, then their pictures overlap. Will it be difficult to fix this?

Another question: the increasing of irrigation productivity after studying some tech is very lacking (the Biology like in Civ4 for example), how difficult will it be to make this?

Engineers don't show shields when the city is producing units, this is intentional because they don't contribute shields towards units - is this what you mean or does it happen even when producing improvements and wonders?

 

[MARK V]

Engineers don't show shields when the city is producing units, this is intentional because they don't contribute shields towards units - is this what you mean or does it happen even when producing improvements and wonders?

No, you are right, I did not know about this feature. Then this part of my question is solved, thank you.

 

[Civinator]

I use upgradeable flag units (shipments), and have seen AI both cash them in and upgrade them - even though they have no AI strategy at all. You are probably right that the ones produced in the capital won't be cashed in, but I believe AI will upgrade them there too (not sure). I checked my mod settings, and realized that the AI strategy "Flag Unit" CAN be set on a mobile flag unit - with the help of Quintillus' editor. I haven't tried it yet, but in my next game I will check the box for AI strategy: "Flag Unit" for shipments and see if it makes any difference.

Upgradable Flag units sound interesting, as there is only one slot for the flag unit in the general settings of the Firaxis editor and even to give the mobile flag unit the Flag-Unit-strategy by the Quintillus editor is worth a try.

Concerning mobile AI flag units with no AI strategy, that we are speaking here about, have you seen that those flag units have moved on their own before being escorted for cash by a mobile unit, or can it be that those AI flag units were escorted the complete way from the location were they appeared to their destination (capital or victory popint) by a different mobile unit ?

 

[Jorsalfare]

Concerning mobile AI flag units with no AI strategy, that we are speaking here about, have you seen that those flag units have moved on their own before being escorted for cash by a mobile unit, or can it be that those AI flag units were escorted the complete way from the location were they appeared to their destination (capital or victory popint) by a different mobile unit ?

No, I can't remember seeing them outside cities un-escorted. PS: My shipment has hidden nationality and do not require escort (I attached the settings as seen in Quintillus' editor). If the defeated escorting unit also have hidden nationality, the shipment won't be captured (switch nationality to mine) when my unit enters it's tile. I will have to "pick it up" and escort it. If I then disband the unit escorting it, the shipment will emerge with my nationality.

I hope that made sense...

EDIT: Come to think of it, I vaguely remember at some very few occasions seeing AI units pop out of the capital and back in again - possibly to cash in a shipment. Maybe I'll have to use debug mode to see if that's the case or not.

 

[Civinator]

My shipment has hidden nationality and do not require escort (I attached the settings as seen in Quintillus' editor).

This is an interesting screenshot. As you can see in the screenshot of the CCM supply shipment in post 2880 of this thread, the CCM supply shipment has the HN flag, too. The difference between both screenshots is, that your shipment has additionally unit costs and the sacrifice flag (culture by sacrificing an HN unit ?) and no AI strategy.

This all is really needing a test in Debug Mode.

 

[WildWeazel]

Has anyone had problems installing R23? I didn't realize at first that the update had failed. On Linux nothing happens, even after purging and reinstalling the game. On Windows I get this error: