Calling all Warmongers

Yeah, if you had a religious bonus with the guy, it would have disappeared immediately when he switched to FR. Unless I'm seeking a diplomatic victory, I find pleased is more than sufficient for most (all?) purposes.
this isn't true

you need to be friendly to
- continue trading beyond the WFYABTA limit
- get votes for diplomtic victory
- get a DP (depends on the AI, but often)
- be safe from a backstab (depends on the AI, but often : the only AI that attacks even when friendly is catherine!)
...
 
Well, I pulled off the domination victory finally. Built up some tanks (probably too many) ... and wiped through half of Japan fairly easily, before getting the victory screen. At the rate I was going, a conquest victory looked possible if I had turned off all the other settings. (Or just razed everything in sight!)

I think I'll try one more game, to see how that goes, and then try and write up a guide. Any other war-monger suggestions?
 
well, i read just about everything, but the one thing everyone seems to neglect is religion. seems like most players probably think this is the path to a peaceful diplomacy or space race victory, but for me, it's absolutely vital for research and economic strength in a domination/conquest game. i once avoided religion completely and had many challenges... then i tried it and what a difference. so, since you asked if there were other ideas:

domination victory on prince level, all 18 civilizations, largest map possible (continents).
(second version of an earlier post)

i use gandhi, mainly for mysticism/mining. gandhi's special unit is the fast worker (one extra movement) and he also has no anarchy... by merging 3 workers to work together, you build quick.... the extra movement allows you to start a chop on a forest the same turn you step into the forest. usually, movement is lost and you have to wait a turn.... so, these starting bonuses seem to be an advantage. since the russian cossack got nerfed, this is my first choice.

so anyhoo, you MUST be the master of a religion. you can avoid enemies by making sure your religion spreads to as many neighbors as possible. for example, "we care for our brothers and sisters of the faith". in my experience, they sit idly by as you march on other countries, even if they were friends... the religious bond is a strong one. the only exception is aggressive leaders like shaka... they'll attack anyway.... so, often, they are the ones i attack first if they happen to be a neighbor.

religion is important for many reasons. it helps research, it helps gold, it helps happiness, it helps gain allies and it even helps culture. if you get it spreading early on and spreading everywhere, you will truly reap the benefits. right off the bat, you have to get one of the first religions, buddhism or hinduism, no matter which, but that should be the very first tech you research.

the second part is the neighbor hunt. rather than waste hammers on a settler (which also halts your growth), i build warriors. earlier i said you need 8, but i just recently made it work with only 4. gandhi starts with one warrior which i guide around the area to explore while building more of them. so, build nothing but warriors in the beginning and search/fogbust with them in every direction. don't get too far apart. once you find a neighbor, send them all there and take them out asap. now you have a second city with a population base, good resources, etc, etc. (you know this)

to heck with scouts. the only benefit is improved results from villages. blah... that's relying on chance anyway. they just die when a barbarian hits them also. unless you start with one, just seems like a waste of hammers to me, which are vital in the early game. later i might build 3 or 4 once barbarians are mostly squeezed out by expanding borders. then it helps to see more of the map which they are good for. and, by the way, your state religion will allow you to "see" any city that adopts your religion. helps when you're busy attacking, not exploring.

after your first religious tech, research fishing or hunting. and try to coordinate the completion of the first worker with the completion of the research for bronze working... so you can start da chop.

after the worker is chopping and you have bronze working, go ahead with archery mainly for defense (damn barbarians). while researching archery, begin stonehenge with haste. worker chop can finish stonehenge in a few turns, painless to build. after archery, get masonry... and hopefully you'll have stone or marble or both. after stonehenge, build an archer. i usually build an archer asap in the captured city too. just one at first. in later turns you may need to sentry a unit on your copper or iron, of course. (damn barbarians)

then i go for priesthood and the oracle and take iron working. you should have either copper or iron on your map at that time. once you see one or both of these, you'll know where to put your settler. (note: you can settle on top of iron and therefore, as soon as the city is connected, by road or river, boom you have it. it's optional tho.)

why stonehenge and the oracle? several reasons, but mainly for iron working and, if both are built in your capital, you'll generate a great profit very quickly. they boost great person development and that is crucial. once you get your prophet, you build the appropriate religious building for your state religion in your capitol... (The Kashi Wishwanath or The Mahabodhi). if you have successfully spread your religion, you'll receive a +2 bonus to gold for every city that has your religion AND each time a new city adapts your religion, cha-ching, more gold. this is such a boon to the economy, i just wouldn't do without it... it's possible to spread a religion a bit later in the game if you miss one of the first ones, but i go for it right away.

for the purpose of GP growth, i always take the parthenon. talk about keeping up with techs... GPs are the key for me.

then i go for alphabet, then writing, literature and on to the great library, and build them in your capitol if you can- more GPs...

next is civil service for the bureaucracy civic, then it's on to divine right... you must get divine right and build the spiral minaret. if you have built all your temples and monasteries, etc, you get +1 gold for each religious building in your cities. if you're in the red, you're immediately in the green again guaranteed. the university of sankor is a vital priority for +2 research in every city in your country with your state religion. you should not ever need to bargain a tech from anybody (if you get all these things going).

now liberalism... you might also want to get Angkor Wat and Oxford University

other good wonders to get if you have a lead:
Versailles
Chichen Itza
Hanging Gardens
Notre Dame
most all the others you can do without. the great lighthouse and the colossus are great, i'll get them if i can, but for me it usually means stopping what i've got going to build a lighthouse or a forge immediately in order to have a chance to win the race to build the wonder. i think avoiding certain wonders, except the most vital, frees you up for military advance/strength... so my wonders tend to have religious benefits. others you will eventually have a good chance in capturing as you go and later, you're so far ahead that cities away from war zones can build whatever you want.

it's also a good idea to found as many other religions as you can. number 1 - you keep your neighbors from acquiring and using them (thereby switching away from your religion). and 2 - the spread of other religions founded by you only helps when you build the appropriate religious wonders for a little extra cha-ching. i don't make founding other religions a priority tho, but it does help.

what was said before about military advance in stages is absolutely right. here's mine, with peace in between:
0) warrior berzerkers... very early, acquire your second city this way. 4 or 5 warriors should do.
1) swordsmen/ax-men.. (if you're quick, most neighbors will be sitting ducks) take out another neighbor early.
2) whatever you've got with catapults... swordsmen, whatever. when you get catapults, time to build and make war
3) elephants or knights with catapults... horse archers seem to suck now, but can work in 2, above.
4) grenadier and cats or trebuchet
5) cavaliers and cats/tres/canons
6) tanks with canons/artillery

by the time you get tanks, you should have about 25 to 30% of total land area, then it's all management and rolling on with tanks that no one else in the world will have but you. it's even more beautiful when you have bombers unimpeded. and other leaders who've been your ally since they adopted your religion will still be your ally no matter how many of their buddies you crush. and don't be afraid to use slavery to speed production early, but if all is going well, you may only need to once or twice.

i welcome other opinions, but for me religion solves so many ills in civ IV.
let me know what you think...
 
one other big vital thing i left off the plans for domination victory is the careful choice of the most powerfully producing city in your lands other than your capitol. about the time you get the "heroic epic", (you should also have a general unit in case you don't have a hi-level unit), carefully pick which one of your cities is your production hogg. build no national wonders in this city except for the heroic epic and west point. also use 2 generals in that city for the +experience and the special building they provide for faster military production.

you'll have your fastest producing city spitting out units at more than twice the rate and 3 levels of experience. it rocks. it will also build forges and factories, etc, very quickly... to further boost production. aside from only building what you need to keep growth, happiness and health stable, the only thing you ever build in this city is one unit after another.

anyone ever try this?
 
Thanks for the suggestions civdude! I actually used quite a bit of them in my last game. I'm somewhat hesitant in building wonders though, as it seems I get beat to them frequently. I tend to use my trees for settlers or later wonders as well. I do try and get the Oracle though, as that free technology usually gets me Code of Laws.

I went for religion as well with Monte and got Hinduism. But this also seems a tad bit risky if you get beat out. I guess I sort of think as religion and wonders as "the easy way out", because they are much more difficult to get in harder difficulties. But I guess if you've got Monte or Huyac a stab at an early religion doesn't hurt. If you have a lot of trees nearby, then maybe an early wonder isn't so bad either. My last game I built the Oracle and that was it, until much later. When I had a massive tech lead, I started going after the advanced wonders like the Pentagon and 3GD.

I sort of do what you say with the warriors though. I like to build 2-3 warriors first, just to get some growth in my city. It makes the number of turns it takes to turn out a worker seem less painful. Although, I never though to attack a city with 4 warriors though. It seems like the odds would be against you if your victim had at least one archer in his city.

As for your suggestion of combining the Heroic Epic and West Point ... I've been doing that for a long time now. I also would suggest combining the Iron Works with the Red Cross later on in the game. You get units out just as fast, and they all have a medic promotion to boot. If you build Mech Infantry, the all have the heal promotion as well.

Thanks for all the suggestions!
 
But the early religions are a crapshoot, aren't they? What happens if you don't start with Mysticism? Usually in my games I get Taoism and/or Confucianism because of the tech path they're on.
 
Also remember, excl, that getting beat to a wonder isn't all that bad. Take a look at Sisiutil's ALC games, and Aelf's EMC games. In both, they get beat to wonders, but in exchange get a great deal of gold. I think the exchange rate on hammers to gold is actually better if you fail a wonder than if you build wealth itself; that gold can come in handy in maintaining your research.
 
the second part is the neighbor hunt. rather than waste hammers on a settler (which also halts your growth), i build warriors. earlier i said you need 8, but i just recently made it work with only 4. gandhi starts with one warrior which i guide around the area to explore while building more of them. so, build nothing but warriors in the beginning and search/fogbust with them in every direction. don't get too far apart. once you find a neighbor, send them all there and take them out asap. now you have a second city with a population base, good resources, etc, etc. (you know this)

Okay, I'm not quite sure I understand this part. I tried this last night. I built four warriors right off the bat, and sent them off to my nearest city. When I got there, he already had three in the city, and another one just outside. Needless to say, I was held off easily, and I was down four warriors. Am I supposed to wait until a non-capital is built and take that? I suppose I could build 8 warriors, but at that point, why don't I just build a settler?
 
Okay, I'm not quite sure I understand this part. I tried this last night. I built four warriors right off the bat, and sent them off to my nearest city. When I got there, he already had three in the city, and another one just outside. Needless to say, I was held off easily, and I was down four warriors. Am I supposed to wait until a non-capital is built and take that? I suppose I could build 8 warriors, but at that point, why don't I just build a settler?

not sure if you're on a higher level, but i usually encounter 2 warriors stationed in the city. out of my 4, 3 die weakening 1 and killing the other and i can usually get the last one on the next turn with an experience boost. i should have said tho, it is NOT failproof, sorry. occasionally i might bring 5 or 6 warriors, just depends... note this is what i try to accomplish... there's still plenty of use for 8 or even 10 warriors. military might is big.... the main thing is... (forget about the number of warriors or whether to spend hammers on a settler) the idea is that your second city will be more developed and a very strong city throughout the game AND you secure a lot more territory that way.
 
Thanks for the suggestions civdude! I actually used quite a bit of them in my last game. I'm somewhat hesitant in building wonders though, as it seems I get beat to them frequently. I tend to use my trees for settlers or later wonders as well. I do try and get the Oracle though, as that free technology usually gets me Code of Laws.

I went for religion as well with Monte and got Hinduism. But this also seems a tad bit risky if you get beat out. I guess I sort of think as religion and wonders as "the easy way out", because they are much more difficult to get in harder difficulties. But I guess if you've got Monte or Huyac a stab at an early religion doesn't hurt. If you have a lot of trees nearby, then maybe an early wonder isn't so bad either. My last game I built the Oracle and that was it, until much later. When I had a massive tech lead, I started going after the advanced wonders like the Pentagon and 3GD.

I sort of do what you say with the warriors though. I like to build 2-3 warriors first, just to get some growth in my city. It makes the number of turns it takes to turn out a worker seem less painful. Although, I never though to attack a city with 4 warriors though. It seems like the odds would be against you if your victim had at least one archer in his city.

As for your suggestion of combining the Heroic Epic and West Point ... I've been doing that for a long time now. I also would suggest combining the Iron Works with the Red Cross later on in the game. You get units out just as fast, and they all have a medic promotion to boot. If you build Mech Infantry, the all have the heal promotion as well.

Thanks for all the suggestions!

yes, it is risky.... it's all contingient on first establishing the religion then getting it going. i've missed both opening religions and got one going later... it's all in theory and just my method of approach... not completely failsafe i'm afraid... but i used to play without religion at all, this new strategy (i've been using it about 2 or 3 months), just worked sooo much better, it's worth the effort.

with the warrior attack, 4 is the minimum. i took out hayna with 2 qucheya in his capitol with 4 warriors (2 left) in my last game... on the first try, no reload, i promise... but, you might need a few more since there is some luck involved. if you can see through the fog and see an archer, don't waste 4 warriors or declare war. i play with a lot of neighbors in the vacinity and may try a stab at another, giving time for another warrior or 2. some will research archery early, i always try to look for who's weak early on. 8 warriors have a good chance to take out 2 archers or 1 archer and 2 warriors, but it's all up to that probability thing i've been discussing on the forums... haha.

either way, i try to get the religion thing going, then it's all military after that, funded by the religion. there may be several different methods to getting this to work effectively rather than the way i do it... :)

i'm open to any ideas as well!
 
But the early religions are a crapshoot, aren't they? What happens if you don't start with Mysticism? Usually in my games I get Taoism and/or Confucianism because of the tech path they're on.

you can go that route too! if you miss the first few, grab another, just hope it spreads as well as the first 2 usually do without spending hammers on missionaries...
 
You must do a lot of restarts? :D

I did try your method a few times with the same starting location and a random seed restart (Huge map, marathon, 18 Civs). One time I sent 4 warriors and got man-handled by their 3. Another time I went there with 8, and killed off his two warriors with my first 3. The third time I went there with 5 and he already had 3 warriors and an archer! :eek:

My last game, I tried to hold off on the initial second city grab. I wanted them to get some second cities going, and then capture those. I even followed most of your suggestions. I went religion early and got Hindu. I went for Stonehenge and the Oracle, and got both. I got Bronze Working, and started pumping out axemen for my first attack. The problem with this, was both of my closest neighbors adopted my religion and had spread it to all thier cities. It seemed like attacking them might be more like biting the hand that fed me. So instead I went after a slightly more distant neighbor, and captured her secondary holy city and another city. Around the same time, one of my neighbor's cities on the opposite border flipped due to culture. So I called peace, having aquired three new cities. (5 total)

The problem with that, was I seemed to anger quite a few people. I had the tech and score lead but then suddenly people were declaring war against me left and right. At one point, I had maybe 5 people at war with me. And as soon as I managed to get peace with one, a new Civ would declare. I was getting all the other Civs that I could to counter-declare, but I was still facing units from all over the place.

I'm not sure what the moral of the story is though. Maybe I needed to attack my weaker neighbor, despite all the religion bonuses. Maybe I needed to finish off a Civ before declaring peace?
 
You must do a lot of restarts? :D

I did try your method a few times with the same starting location and a random seed restart (Huge map, marathon, 18 Civs). One time I sent 4 warriors and got man-handled by their 3. Another time I went there with 8, and killed off his two warriors with my first 3. The third time I went there with 5 and he already had 3 warriors and an archer! :eek:

My last game, I tried to hold off on the initial second city grab. I wanted them to get some second cities going, and then capture those. I even followed most of your suggestions. I went religion early and got Hindu. I went for Stonehenge and the Oracle, and got both. I got Bronze Working, and started pumping out axemen for my first attack. The problem with this, was both of my closest neighbors adopted my religion and had spread it to all thier cities. It seemed like attacking them might be more like biting the hand that fed me. So instead I went after a slightly more distant neighbor, and captured her secondary holy city and another city. Around the same time, one of my neighbor's cities on the opposite border flipped due to culture. So I called peace, having aquired three new cities. (5 total)

The problem with that, was I seemed to anger quite a few people. I had the tech and score lead but then suddenly people were declaring war against me left and right. At one point, I had maybe 5 people at war with me. And as soon as I managed to get peace with one, a new Civ would declare. I was getting all the other Civs that I could to counter-declare, but I was still facing units from all over the place.

I'm not sure what the moral of the story is though. Maybe I needed to attack my weaker neighbor, despite all the religion bonuses. Maybe I needed to finish off a Civ before declaring peace?

i don't reload in the beginning often. if i do it's because i don't get copper close by or iron or some debilitating thing like that....

ok, the whole idea to taking out a neighbor verrrry early is to prevent your neighbors from becoming angry with you. you should take their city before they have any relations with anyone. so, quicker the better. waiting as you did, you must be a military powerhouse at home to deter attacks. it also sounds as though you'll be spread out too far which weakens you both economically and militarily. you just expanded a little to quick i think.

starting city defenses for enemies will vary... note they are building settlers to expand and the ai will not send out a settler without escort, so they build units that sit in thier capitol until the settler is ready. that may be what you see when they have 3 or 4. also, if you wait long enough that they have archers, unless you have a ton of warriors, it might be too late. BUT, there are still options.

after the first conquered neighbor, it's all peace and growth and settlers until i secure iron and have a good swordsman army and a far enough lead and defense to dispel another neighbors notion to attack. the +4 from other religious friends really helps this too. they'll still be you pals after you attack a weaker neighbor... but, like i said, if your defense overall is somewhat weak, shaka, montazuma, tokugawa, any agressive leader will attack no matter the common religion. shoot, some will attack even if you are well defended and share the same religion... ha.

if a neighbor has your religion, it's fine to conquor them. their cities will already have your religion imbedded. perfect your needs... and yes, if you leave a civilization around after taking 1 or 2 of their cities, you'll run into a few problems. better to take them out all the way. the idea is to spread the religion to as many other cities as possible, but there is no reason to preserve your neighbors if they adopt the religion. keep the cities, remove the leadership haha :D and it is sometimes the best strategy to raise a city... that depends on a few things too...
 
I typically start most games off by rushing the nearest opponent, though lately it seems impossible to get any copper. Once you capture their main city, that in and of itself gives you a big advantage. The main difficulty in the game is attempting to balance the expansion and economy factors.
 
Back
Top Bottom